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Author Topic: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals  (Read 9683 times)

Andrew Gregory

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Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« on: November 14, 2010, 01:56:46 pm »

Hi I am new to the forms and looking for some advice and help with a unique project. I am helping with the design of a sound system that we will build to provide the music for firework shows (Pyromusicals). This is unique because this application does not have many of the limitations of an outdoors concert and I have not been able to find any information as to the best setup to use for  Pyromusicals. We are starting from scratch, basically, and would like the best bang for our buck.

The owner of the fireworks company has become a dealer for Eminence Speakers to get the best price and is planing on getting amps from QSC.

He has already purchased speakers from Eminence with out much thought on the cabinets for them.
He has two HF drivers with horns, APT200s and PSD3006-8 which as far as I know just need a box of any size because they have horns.  The subs he got are KAPPA PRO15s and KILOMAX PRO-18A,which as far as I can tell are best suited for vented enclosures and may not be the best for our setup. At this time we are considering changing the sub choice to single 15 inch sub horns and the subs he  purchased will be traded in or sold.

The owners original expectations where to cover the hole hearing spectrum (20-20Khz). After a few reality checks on outdoor system performance we have  have lowered our  expectations to a more reasonable 40 to 50hz on the low end and as high as we can get out of the HF drivers he has.

Right now we need to come up with the best sub-woofer for our application and spec out power requirements so we can order the amps.

If we consider the following parameters for this project I am thinking we should go with some horn loaded 15”subs. At first I mentioned the LAB15 speaker by Eminence only to come to the realization half an hour later that there has been a box designed for this speaker yet like the LAB12 speaker. So I am back to ground zero trying to find a tried and tested design that we can build that best meets our requirements. At this point I am thinking a folded tapped horn for the LAB 15s. What do you think?

The parameters for this project include the following;

The venues will be about 500 -1000 people in a football field size outdoors setting.
No stage so we don't have to worry about rear consolation.
We are thinking about 4 stacks of speakers spaced out on the ground in front of the audience and very close to them. Within 50 feet.
The size of the subs are not a big consideration where as we will already have trucks and crew their to set up the fireworks.
The power will come from QSC amps power by rented generators.
I am looking at try amplification with a EQ or DSP for crossover settings.
Are hope is to get better than 100DB or more at 50 to 100 feet across 40 to 15K Hz.
As simple design as we can get for DIY.
Using horn extensions for the larger shows.
Need to use  Eminence speakers.
Needs to be a tried and tested design. I can not experiment with the owners money but if it is a tested design than the sky's the limit.
I am looking for maxim effichency to keep the power requierments as low as posible.
Any ideas for the DIY subs?  Let me know if I left out any relevant information. Andy
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Art Welter

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 04:33:43 pm »

Andy,

100 dB at 50 feet can be done with a single 15” Eminence Definimax 15LF powered with 600 watts  in a 6.3 cubic foot ported cabinet tuned to 39 Hz, and will have an F3 of 35 Hz.
100 dB at 100 feet can be done with two of the above.
Your dB requirements don’t need horn loaded designs at all.

The Definimax 18LF would be also be a good choice for the LF, it will go lower and louder, but will take larger enclosures to do so.

Eminence provides various ported designs for most of their cones.
I would suggest looking at them and choosing accordingly.

Art Welter
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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 05:07:43 pm »

Thanks Art. I have the Eminence design software with the ported cabs, but was thinking I could get better SPLs and higher efficiency with horns. You know more bang for you buck. Andy
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Art Welter

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 05:25:12 pm »

Andrew Gregory wrote on Sun, 14 November 2010 15:07

Thanks Art. I have the Eminence design software with the ported cabs, but was thinking I could get better SPLs and higher efficiency with horns. You know more bang for you buck. Andy

Horn loaded cabinets will give a lot more upper bass sensitivity, but ported cabinets can do more output per size.
If you have plenty of storage and hauling capacity, horns are an advantage, but you need very large bass horns to get high output below 55 Hz or so.

In my current situation, storage and hauling capacity are at a premium, so I converted from horn loaded bass cabinets to dual Eminence Lab 12 ported cabinets.
This greatly increased the low bass output, but lost some output above about 70 Hz.

I have gone back and forth over the years from horn to ported and some hybrid designs. Presently, with amp and speaker costs lower than ever, plywood, real estate and fuel costs going up, ported designs may actually offer more "bang for the buck".

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Duane Massey

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 08:03:19 pm »

Andrew, how advanced are your carpentry skills? How large is too large? I've built many large horns over the years, and Art is correct, you do need really big horns to reproduce lower freqs efficiently. If you are prepared to transport cabinets as big as 48W x 40T x 72D, then you can seriously consider large horns, and the results will be very, very impressive.

I would suggest you will need to look beyond the small horns you currently have, and consider building mid-bass horns to go with the subs. You can build quite a system using all Eminince/QSC components, and it would be very cost-effective.

Feel free to contact me if I can be of help, as this seems like the kind of project I enjoy.
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Duane Massey
Houston, Texas, USA

Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 10:55:47 pm »

Duane; We have a cabinet maker on the pay roll that has expereance with speaker boxs. How big? maybe up to 48"X48"X48" with a removible horn extenshoin that would only be used at the larger venues.
Quote:

I would suggest you will need to look beyond the small horns you currently have
Do you mean the PSD3006-8s? Thanks for your Help. It could be fun if I can get it right and it maybe the first setup designed specificaly for pyromusicals.  Andy
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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 04:33:51 pm »

Any thoughts on the THAM15 design? Seems simple enough to make.
Maybe an extension can be put on that or will it even work on a tapped horn?
Andy
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Art Welter

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 09:23:41 pm »

Andrew Gregory wrote on Mon, 15 November 2010 14:33

Any thoughts on the THAM15 design? Seems simple enough to make.
Maybe an extension can be put on that or will it even work on a tapped horn?
Andy

Looks like it should work OK.
Any actual response curves, with actual drive levels?
Any excursion measurements?

Extensions won't work well on a tapped horn design, as the speaker cone is usually placed near the mouth, an extension would change the cone to mouth relationship.
If the extension was designed to be effective, it would result in an anemic response when removed.
A tapped horn does not require a large mouth to play low.

Straight horns benefit from horn extensions, but a more judicious use of wood is making long path folded horns, then coupling multiple units.
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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 07:22:23 am »

Ya, I didnt think an horn extension would be to good for a taped horn. How about a single fold horn with an extension? Like a "W" bin? Andy
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Art Welter

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 11:44:01 am »

Andrew Gregory wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 05:22

Ya, I didnt think an horn extension would be to good for a taped horn. How about a single fold horn with an extension? Like a "W" bin? Andy

A spiral horn gets more path length per wood and space used than a "W". Straight, "W", spiral horns can all benefit from an extension, if the extension is built and attached solidly.
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