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Author Topic: PA Install for Bar and Grill  (Read 5978 times)

Charlie Zureki

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 09:51:41 am »

Jonathan Ladner wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 08:21

So there goes the dog with it's tail tucked underneath.

I've been on the PSW forums long enough to understand the philosophy only the experienced can convey.  That's why I like the information I gain here. I really do appreciate the input.

It also appears that a permanent install will not be the best solution here. I stopped by the venue yesterday evening to evaluate once more; good thing! Coincidence; Maybe? There is a big screen that is rolled down behind the stage during big games and the projector is located stage front where eye bolts are positioned.  There's also a huge A/C duct just in front of where the proposed mains were to be hung.  Needless to say, the speakers would be in field of view of screen once positioned correctly. Another problem, there is no room behind the sound booth for a mixer none the less it would be a pain in the ass to go around to adjust. It just won't work with existing setup. There is no room for FOH out front nor will it be practical since there is no one to run it.

I know the owner is at least interested in investing in a PA for bands. He wants to make it easier for bands to more less show up, bring only the minimum equipment required and play. Yet he also wants something that doesn't have to be moved every time with maybe the exception of stage monitors. I certainly understand and appreciate his thoughts and I most definitely concur. Besides, it's also a good bargaining tool for bringing bands in.

So what is a good solution? Should I just leave the existing equipment as is and use it only for DJ or should I try and utilize some of it? I want to at least give him an idea of what it going to cost to do it "reasonably priced" right. I'm all ears.




 Hello Jonathan,

 Unfortunately, you're experiencing what most of us that do installs, have known for many years. That the Bar Owner wants the best of both Worlds. He wants to generate income from hosting Music Acts, yet, he does not want to spend any money to make it a comfortable, easy place for Musicians to perform.

  His wanting to be a sports bar, host a DJ, and provide Live Music Acts in his venue is a great idea, except that they all tend to suffer in a venue that does not have the capability to provide comfortably, for all three forms of Entertainment.

  Many Bars are limited in their ability to provide for a clean, confortable, and appropriate setup based on the size and layout of the building.  This Bar's layout is no exception.

  In order for the Bar to be viable performance venue, the Bar Owner will need to make concessions. Hiring a Professional Sound/Video Company would be the first step in making a concession, something he will probably not do.  

  My advice is to find another place to perform, somewhere, where Live Performance is important to the Club Owner. You'll be happy, the Group will be happy and hopefully, the Bar Owner will be happy to have you and your Group perform.

 Hammer

 ps. If I had a dollar for every poorly "designed" Live Performance Venue....it still wouldn't equal the amount of Bar/Club Owners that have high expectations and tight pocket-books.

 
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Dick Rees

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 09:56:02 am »

Perhaps the best a venue can do to make it easy for bands is to provide clean, adequate power which is band only.....no sharing circuits with restaurant equipment, easy in/out, parking, case storage, etc.  Maybe others can suggest infrastructure/service issues which would make bands love to come there to play.  I think most bands will have the proper gear specific to their sound/use which would be hard for a venue to cover for everyone without compromises here and there.

Just being there to guide him through the process of developing a plan and finding a professional to implement it is enough of a job and one for which you seem suited.

Good luck.
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Jonathan Ladner

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2010, 10:30:42 am »

I must say the venue is very ideal in those requirements; maybe not so much acoustics though. There are 6 separate circuits at the stage 2 of which are used by the DJ; There is a storage room next to the stage; Parking is just outside the entrance doors with a separate entrance with ramp to the stage front.

We would be the house band playing there at least 2 weekends out of the month. It would really be nice to show up and play in less than a hour on good PA.

I think I could convince him to spend more for the right setup. The occupancy code for this venue is just over 100 peeps and stays packed on weekends. He shouldn't have a problem with this investment.  They do good business during weekday and evening. They have a subscription to every good sporting event offered and food is great. The business has good potential.
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Dick Rees

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2010, 12:00:46 pm »

Heavy curtains which could be drawn over the mirror wall behind the stage would be a must-have.  As it appears from your description this would be a major PITA.
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Jonathan Ladner

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2010, 12:04:14 pm »

Actually pondered the idea and would be a simple fix.  The mirror looks good and gives an appearance of spaciousness but creates sound reflection havoc on stage.
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Dick Rees

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2010, 12:07:42 pm »

Glass and mirrors behind the stage are the death of coherent sound.

Here's a link to some usable material:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/44676/19468/
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Jeff Wheeler

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 12:00:52 am »

Jonathan Ladner wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 08:21

Besides, it's also a good bargaining tool for bringing bands in.

No, it isn't.  Here is what happens when you install an under-budget PA system in a small bar/nightclub:
* good bands will no longer play there because the club expects them to play for cheaper
* shit bands will jump at the chance because they are too disorganized to hire or purchase PA, they will not care about the quality of the gear because they don't know anything and do not care about the quality of their performance, and the club will quickly become known for bad live music
* the PA system will be used by idiot after idiot, without anyone returning it to a baseline configuration for the next user, maintaining the gear, or making sure it isn't abused by that DJ the club owner wanted to try off of craigslist one night
* soon, everyone will wonder who is to blame for the shit PA system being inadequate when it was installed and total shit after it was reconfigured and abused by various users
* and the person they blame will be you

Don't touch it until the owner realizes that they need to spend at least $15k-$20k for a decent system.

Suggest they spend the $4k budget they have on lighting instead.  If they do that right and realize the benefits, they will have an easier time accepting that a $20k PA system will be a good investment.
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Jonathan Ladner

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 12:41:39 am »

Jeff, I concur; that was the point I was trying to make. It wouldn't be an advantage to our band or an asset to the owner if it wasn't done correctly. I mention "our" band only because the proposed setup would have been better than just about anything other local bands would bring. Trust me, I know the demographics of this area.

It also appears that the owner is NOT going to put forth any extra funds in getting an upgrade of any kind and I am glad. I've washed my hands clean on this one and will bring my system when we play and charge the extra required.

Thanks again for all the input.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2010, 08:33:46 am »

Jonathan Ladner wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 23:41

Jeff, I concur; that was the point I was trying to make. It wouldn't be an advantage to our band or an asset to the owner if it wasn't done correctly. I mention "our" band only because the proposed setup would have been better than just about anything other local bands would bring. Trust me, I know the demographics of this area.

It also appears that the owner is NOT going to put forth any extra funds in getting an upgrade of any kind and I am glad. I've washed my hands clean on this one and will bring my system when we play and charge the extra required.

Thanks again for all the input.



 Hello Jonathon,

  I hope that you didn't expend too much effort in trying to convince this Bar owner that investing in a Sound System and acoustic treatments for his club would be a wise business investment.

  Although we tried to warn you of exactly what would happen, I suppose you had to try..."nothing ventured, nothing gained".

  Good Luck, and keep your Groups playing options open to other clubs too.
 
 Hammer

ps. I wouldn't be surprised if this guy doesn't have some sound gear installed in a few months....but, it'll be HIS IDEA and it'll be crap, because he won't do it correctly.
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