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Author Topic: PA Install for Bar and Grill  (Read 5951 times)

Jonathan Ladner

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PA Install for Bar and Grill
« on: November 02, 2010, 12:08:32 pm »

I have a small bar and grill I am working with that wants to upgrade their PA to accommodate bands as well as in-house DJ. We would be the house band and play the majority of the time. The idea is to have bands only bring their mics, stands, and cables as well as their own instruments and back line.  The bands would have to run their own sound from the booth next to the stage.

Here is the room setup:

- 50' W x 150' L  room with bar running length of room
- Ceiling height is approx 12ft
- Ideally mostly dance floor coverage only
- Glass windows along dining booths (run entire length of room)
- Mirror wall behind stage (ugh)
- Power outlets are available along ceiling where eye bolts are located

Existing equipment:

- 2 Peavey Impulse 1012
- 2 Peavey SP Dual 18" Subwoofers (Black Widow Loaded)
- 2 Peavey GPS 3500 amplifiers
- Peavey VSX Crossover
- Denon DJ Mixer

My thought is to use the existing Impulse 1012 as monitors and just rotate them back toward stage.  They are in an ideal location and it would help with stage room since it's somewhat cramped.  Now to just add mixer, EQ, and flyable mains with a somewhat narrow horizontal dispersion.

Here are my thoughts:

- Peavey QF15 (Dual 15 band with FLS) for monitors.  I know it's not a 31 band but I have to keep it simple
- A&H Zed 22 with FX
- Mackie HD 1221 (rotate horn for 50h x 90v) 90v maybe too much?
- Rack with security panel for everything; have one or two rack mount power strips at top
- Maybe a driverack or something similar for crossover, limiting and EQ on FOH

Budget $3500 - $4000

Suggestions or ideas for this setup?

index.php/fa/33492/0/
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Dick Rees

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 01:45:17 pm »

OMG......another Good Samaritan trying to help out a poor bar owner.

Do a search on this topic.  It has been done to death.  
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 02:45:24 pm »

 Hello Jonathon,

Designing and installing a Sound System is not for the unexperienced.  There are too many factors involved in order to try and glean the complete information from the Net.

Any Sound Systems I've ever seen/heard that were installed from an amateur, is exactly what I expected ... bad gear choices, poorly installed, poorly optimized ... netting a waste of time and money.

Please remember this statement.."a good Sound System sounds good, and yet, is not immediately noticeable but, a poor Sounding System IS immediately noticeable and IS immediately annoying".

And remember... "Designing a good Sounding System IS Rocket Science". Unless you understand this.... your results will be a poor System.

 Hire someone that has experience in Designing and Installing a Sound System.

 Hammer
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Be prepared, you'll need it!

Jonathan Ladner

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 06:34:31 pm »

Perhaps I should have been less informative about the setup and just asked What PA for a bar? Generic questions seem to receive better responses here.

It is a forum after all, thanks for the input.
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Dick Rees

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 06:43:22 pm »

Jonathan....

Nothing really personal, but after having been in the music "business" as a performer for 35+ years I have seen many good people in your position being taken advantage of by club owners.  For a regular place to play you will be giving him the benefit of doing the work he should do for himself for free or a cheap rate, taking the blame for anything that goes wrong and having the responsibility of maintenance and repairs on a system in which you have no ownership.

Equipment isn't the only thing that gets "used".

The voice of experience.
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Phil LaDue

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 07:54:09 pm »

I hope these eyebolts are forged and the chain is rated properly.

Gene Hardage

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 11:05:27 pm »

Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 18:43

Jonathan....

Nothing really personal, but after having been in the music "business" as a performer for 35+ years I have seen many good people in your position being taken advantage of by club owners.  For a regular place to play you will be giving him the benefit of doing the work he should do for himself for free or a cheap rate, taking the blame for anything that goes wrong and having the responsibility of maintenance and repairs on a system in which you have no ownership.

Equipment isn't the only thing that gets "used".

The voice of experience.



Agreed +1 etc.


The room description is a typical club - lot's of glass and a few dinosaur pieces of equipment that have somehow survived a DJ.  The other bands will do their best to blow things up for you when they get their chance.  The room will hurt people unless the owner reaches in his pocket to buy some kind of acoustic treatment.  On a constructive note - be wary of simply turning those hanging Peaveys around to use as monitors.  I've seen this done before and sometimes the angle they project from can cause monitor feed back issues regardless of whatever slash-n-hack EQ is implemented.   Good luck with the house band gig - we need more of these.
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Brad Weber

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2010, 07:11:38 am »

Agree with what the others have already said. Such situations are rather notorious for trying to do things as cheap as possible and then the people who tried to help taking the blame when the results are less then hoped.

A mix position beside the band so that what the person mixing hears is nothing like what the audience hears.  A 15 band EQ on monitors to "keep it simple".  Using the existing speakers located to the sides out in the audience area for "monitors".  Planning on flown, powered mains where there is likely no power in place for them.  Doing nothing to improve the poor stage acoustics.  All of these suggest more doing something rather than doing what should be done.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

Jonathan Ladner

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 09:21:10 am »

So there goes the dog with it's tail tucked underneath.

I've been on the PSW forums long enough to understand the philosophy only the experienced can convey.  That's why I like the information I gain here. I really do appreciate the input.

It also appears that a permanent install will not be the best solution here. I stopped by the venue yesterday evening to evaluate once more; good thing! Coincidence; Maybe? There is a big screen that is rolled down behind the stage during big games and the projector is located stage front where eye bolts are positioned.  There's also a huge A/C duct just in front of where the proposed mains were to be hung.  Needless to say, the speakers would be in field of view of screen once positioned correctly. Another problem, there is no room behind the sound booth for a mixer none the less it would be a pain in the ass to go around to adjust. It just won't work with existing setup. There is no room for FOH out front nor will it be practical since there is no one to run it.

I know the owner is at least interested in investing in a PA for bands. He wants to make it easier for bands to more less show up, bring only the minimum equipment required and play. Yet he also wants something that doesn't have to be moved every time with maybe the exception of stage monitors. I certainly understand and appreciate his thoughts and I most definitely concur. Besides, it's also a good bargaining tool for bringing bands in.

So what is a good solution? Should I just leave the existing equipment as is and use it only for DJ or should I try and utilize some of it? I want to at least give him an idea of what it going to cost to do it "reasonably priced" right. I'm all ears.
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Bill Hinds

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Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 09:34:42 am »

I would tell him to save his money until he can afford to do it correctly.  His budget needs to be multiplied by at least 5x's.  You can tell him this in a positive mannor as he will only be throwing his money away if he only spends $4000 - $5000 as he nor any of the bands will be happy with the results. In my opinion to do what he wants to do and be able to negotiate a good price with quality bands he his going to have to spend between $25,000 - $50,000.  Sounds like he needs to re-configure some things before he even installs a descent House PA.  

Bottom line, if he spends $5000 his goals will not be reached and he will be very dis-satisfied and wonder why fis goals are not being met.
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Bill Hinds
ClearSound Design Inc.
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