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Author Topic: 21" super scooper Anyone?  (Read 12201 times)

Miguel Castro Rios

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21" super scooper Anyone?
« on: August 06, 2010, 04:35:25 pm »

Here where I live. Super Scoopers are really popular, We like their sound, however I haven't seen or heard the 21" super scooper... Only the 18" and they sound nice to the music we play in them.

The design is here

http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=21superscooper

The recommended speaker is PD2150

However it is difficult to find where I live, So we all use Eighteen sound, for the 18" super scooper 18W1400, replacing the Pd1850.

We normally use from 6 to 12 of these boxes per side.

What do you recommend for the 21 inch super super?

Will the NLW9600 be proper for this?

Has anyone used the 21 inch superscooper?
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Elliot Thompson

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 09:45:41 pm »

Hi.

You can use the Eighteen Sound 21 NLW 9600 or, the B&C 21 NW 160.

I am not a fan of the sound Scoops offer. However, I was subjected by lots of them when I lived in England and have a full understanding on what drivers are needed to attain the sound that many who use them fancy.

Best Regards,
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Elliot

Miguel Castro Rios

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 10:36:53 am »

Thank you!
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Elliot Thompson

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 09:52:33 pm »

I just noticed B&C has discontinued the 21 NW 160 and are offering different models which shares no characteristic to the 21 NW 160.

Stick with the Eighteen Sound 21 NLW 9600.

Best Regards,
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Elliot

Gene Hardage

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2010, 11:36:17 pm »

P Audio makes a pretty spiffy 21.
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Miguel Castro Rios

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 01:43:15 am »

Thanks for your time...

Yes I will stick to Eighteen Sound...

Just a few more questions...

First. As far as sound, how does the 18" super scooper compare to the 21" inch Super scooper...

Second. We normally use the LW1400 and we put about 2400 Watts for every two boxes. About 1200 Watts per speaker.

If I use 18Sound and either build a 21 inch super Scooper or still use the 18 inch super scoopers that we have, but instead, use the 18NLW9600. Wich can take 3600 Watts Program rating... Will the output (spl and frequency) be increased to the amount of cash being invested? (I mean from one driver to the other) ...


Eighteen Sound will be. Thank you...

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 11:27:20 am »

Gene Hardage wrote on Sat, 07 August 2010 23:36

P Audio makes a pretty spiffy 21.

But does it have the proper parameters for that particular cabinet?

Putting a "good" driver into a cabinet that is looking for a different set of parameters is often going to result in less than desired performance.

It is the mate between the cabinet and the driver that gives the best results.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Elliot Thompson

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 11:51:00 am »

Miguel Castro Rios wrote on Sun, 08 August 2010 06:43

Thanks for your time...

Yes I will stick to Eighteen Sound...

Just a few more questions...

First. As far as sound, how does the 18" super scooper compare to the 21" inch Super scooper...

Second. We normally use the LW1400 and we put about 2400 Watts for every two boxes. About 1200 Watts per speaker.

If I use 18Sound and either build a 21 inch super Scooper or still use the 18 inch super scoopers that we have, but instead, use the 18NLW9600. Wich can take 3600 Watts Program rating... Will the output (spl and frequency) be increased to the amount of cash being invested? (I mean from one driver to the other) ...


Eighteen Sound will be. Thank you...






Nice.


You are the first person I have ever heard ask a serious question in regards to scoops.

The 21-inch Scoop will offer a lower frequency response at a higher dB rating than the 18-inch Scoop. Bear in mind, there are a few things you need to take into consideration upon building this design.

The 21-inch Scoop is not popular based on its weight. Using the Precision Devices PD 2150, it weighed around 100 – 150 kg pending on how much bracing was involved. The weight will be lighter using the Eighteen Sound due to not offering a ceramic magnet.

Since maximum output will not be attained due to not having the required amplifier power, you can use 1200 watts as the guideline. It is a more realistic view on what to expect instead of calculating the maximum output the driver will offer at the manufactures rating despite, not having enough amplification to reach there.

You have a +0.52 dB in favour of the 21 NLW 9600 over the 18 LW 1400 from a 2.83-volt perspective using no enclosure.  

Comparing the 18 LW 1400 to the 18 NLW 9600 yields a 1 dB gain in favour of the 18 LW 1400 over the 18 NLW 9600.

At 1200 watts long-term, the 18 LW 1400 will more than likely be in power compression so, there will be a 3 dB (or higher) loss in SPL.

At 1200 watts long-term, the 21 NLW 9600 will more than likely not face any power compression due to receiving less power than the advertised wattage figure.

At 1200 watts long-term, the 18 NLW 9600 will more than likely not face any power compression due to receiving less power than the advertised wattage figure.


Of course, with the amount of cabinets being used, the chances of any of the drivers facing power compression will be lower than someone trying to squeeze ever bit of SPL using 2 – 4 bass bins.

What you should expect is more output from 50 Hertz downwards from the 21-inch Scoop oppose the 18-inch version and, no compression (hence more output) using the 18 NLW 9600. The difference will be noticeable conducting a test using four 18-inch Scoops versus four 21-inch Scoops. If the comparison is lopsided, the cabinets with the most bins will offer a lower response or in the case of the 18 NLW 9600, more output with the same frequency response.


No one will be able to tell you if such an investment is beneficial. Only you can answer that question.


Best Regards,
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Elliot

Ivan Beaver

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone? At what freq-Response curves
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 12:57:38 pm »

Elliot Thompson wrote on Sun, 08 August 2010 11:51

[You have a +0.52 dB in favour of the 21 NLW 9600 over the 18 LW 1400 from a 2.83-volt perspective using no enclosure.  

Comparing the 18 LW 1400 to the 18 NLW 9600 yields a 1 dB gain in favour of the 18 LW 1400 over the 18 NLW 9600.




One simply cannot state that a particualr driver is so and so different in SPL-without looking at the specific freq response curves in question and at particular freq on those curves.

Below you will see three response curves of the 3 drivers.  If you look closely you will see that the stated numbers above really don't mean much, when you look at the curves.

As with ANY loudspeaker specification you HAVE to ask "At what freq".  Because at a different freq you will have a different answer.

Of course the tuning of the cabinets used is different-but it is all we have to compare with.

If you look at the different freq you will find that the 21" has greater low freq output-but less upper freq output.  

The 18" drivers also vary at different freq.

What makes a particular "sound" of a cabinet is not just the low freq-but also the higher freq.

Of course these are also in sealed boxes-nothing at all like what a scoop would provide.

So how will the particular drivers respond in a scoop configuration?  The only real way to tell is to build one and measure it.

At that point you could start to make realistic comparisons.

Then you would have some cabinets in which you could buy various drivers from different manufacturers and then test and measure and see which ones provide the best intended response.

In some cases it may be freq response depth-in others it may be SPL up around the kick drum freq.

Going lower does not add punch to the kick drum-but can add a whole new dimension to the sound that would be lacking without it.

Different people have different needs.
index.php/fa/31896/0/
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Elliot Thompson

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Re: 21" super scooper Anyone? At what freq-Response curves
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 01:29:27 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Sun, 08 August 2010 17:57

Elliot Thompson wrote on Sun, 08 August 2010 11:51

[You have a +0.52 dB in favour of the 21 NLW 9600 over the 18 LW 1400 from a 2.83-volt perspective using no enclosure.  

Comparing the 18 LW 1400 to the 18 NLW 9600 yields a 1 dB gain in favour of the 18 LW 1400 over the 18 NLW 9600.




One simply cannot state that a particualr driver is so and so different in SPL-without looking at the specific freq response curves in question and at particular freq on those curves.



I used the no. % and divided both figures together. I generally do not use the frequency response measured from the manufacter for it is based on a tuned cabinet. If the suggested cabinet differs from the cabinet the driver is going to be housed in, the response will be different.

Best Regards,


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Elliot
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