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Author Topic: Bose panaray  (Read 25089 times)

Jack Littleton

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2010, 11:16:50 am »

I haven't seen the marketing, but "surprised" is the word I most associate with Bose. Are you saying you don't like the sound? I thought they sounded really good at the gig I mentioned (MA12's). Previously, I had heard the 502A's used for fill and they were surprisingly loud. But it's a midrange speaker. For an acoustic group playing to a few hundred people, this would a great pick. And, there's nothing above 15k that anybody needs to hear anyway Wink. They're sweet enough for string quartets, but you're not going to choose this system for heavy metal (but there is a Youtube video of a DJ using 502A's!) I definitely agree that offering a model that included more 3rd octave would be good for events that don't require subwoofers. But, it's likely that the band itself will provide enough low end for events that Panaray would be used on (200 to 300 people). Again, I haven't seen the ads you mention.

DJ using 502A's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfXtfbc3hRg

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Bill Burford

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2010, 01:06:40 pm »

I'm not saying it sounds bad.. I am saying that this site is full of sound guys and pro engineers who know what a real speaker array is.

whatever... it sounded however it sounded.

I know I've mixed on every kind of small speaker almost in the same room-- including the Bose.

I know how they all respond even for small dinner parties with 10 people in the crowd.
(private partys)

Will I give you my true opinion?  no
Would I tell my friend or anyone who asks for my professional opinion or help making a small purchase?  yes

my opinion reflects on my experience so I must give my accurate opinion for anything or say "I don't know" if I don't know.
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Jack Littleton

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2010, 01:35:53 pm »

Understood. Sort of. You don't dislike the sound, but you object to the marketing on the basis of its technical accuracy. In other words, their use of the word, "array". I found their white paper, if anyone is interested, which is where they make their case (below). Yes, we've all used everything, or almost everything, over the course of thousands of events. The Bose are unique. Probably no one would argue that.

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/white_papers/panaray_ma12/wp_pan aray_ma12.pdf
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Bill Burford

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2010, 06:02:48 pm »

actually.  you've changed my mind and made me feel bad.

if that design takes off--- good for them.

The BOSE speakers I really liked the most were the bookshelf speakers that were probably 14 or 15 inches or so wide... probably 8-10 inches tall.
I can't remember what kind of woofer it had but I think it was a 8 (maybe 10)
but it had 2 small 2" tweeters mounted and aimed in different directions.

You had to take the covers off to see the speakers..
I was a kid when I heard/saw them.  My friends dad had them in an apartment.
I thought they sounded pretty good.  This was 3rd grade
I couldn't really tell the difference between those and the Fischer speakers I was used to which had a 100 watt receiver on them.. I heard the BOSE once and his dad played "EUROPE" ... I think it was Europe... (the final countdown).. I was impressed, maybe it was the recording.

This is no joke, My other friend's dad had JBL speakers-- 3-way.  They were from the 70's... the kind with little adjustment knobs on a small panel next to the mid and hi.  
In my opinion, I thought those were the best sounding speakers I've heard at the time.  I was pissed because they sounded better.  I remember listening to Megadeth, Metallica, Madonna, Dire Straights, and RUN DMC through them.  The clearly out-performed the Fischer's and the BOSE.   I thought at the time it was due to the older receiver and speakers which seemed to have some ridiculous amount of power per channel.  It had vcu meters on it.  pretty cool/great sound.  some of those old Metal/Oxide cassettes had really good sound on them despite the slight fuzz which might come through.   I remember I liked to turn off dolby because it muffled the tone.
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Jack Littleton

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2010, 07:05:24 pm »

Wow! Amazing. My dad had Bose 301's and I had forgotten until you said that. He loved those speakers. Maybe that's why I also give them a little props. Also, the natural "root for the underdog" thing. Alright then -- Go Bose!
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Tom Young

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2010, 07:28:05 pm »

Quote:

the "pan" array isn't even an array in the sense of a true "speaker array" the way it is professionally used as a term.

The word "array" means a 2 dimensional arangement of nodes. so
"technically" it is an array of 2 inch speakers but it doesn't qualify as a "speaker array" in the way a real speaker array does.

a array has a constant-curvature single-horn assembly accross multiple perfectly aligned (single axis) High Frequency drivers. This is very important for phasing issues.


Bill-

Not nitpicking but I have to disagree. This IS a semantics issue, me thinks.

Column speakers have been classified as "linear arrays" for decades, probably back to when Harry F Olson first described them in a scholarly fashion in "Elements of Acoustcal Engineering" in 1940.

I know that elsewhere in the physical sciences there are "linear arrays" of various devices. (wish I could recall a good example) I also know (I agree with you) that groups of devices in 2-dimensional arrangements are also referred to as "arrays". Perhaps somewhere long ago the term was bastardized. But not by Bose.

We (the professional live sound industry) often use the terms "array" and "cluster" interchangeably. In my mind an array is more likely to be linear whereas a cluster is more likely to be 2D. But maybe that's just me.

I have always been a proponent *and* harsh critic of Bose and continue in that vein. Most, if not all, of their "white papers" are nothing more than marketing hype and much of the very slick, marketing crap they have done on the MA12 and the Personal PA (or whatever they now call the variations they have on this column speaker) in particular is pure rubbish filled with gross exaggeration and blatant (factual) distortions.

None-the-less..... the MA12 (and its cousins) remain perfectly usable and/or justifiable devices for specific applications. Provided you undertsand what they can and cannot do. This is obviously also true of the multi-band line arrays that are used so widely now in concert sound, etc.

Having said that ....... JBL's new CBT series clearly appears to be a substantial leap upwards in taking the initial/simple concept and improving upon it and the behavior of similar (in size, shape and cost) column speakers. Inluding the curvature you mention which (in the CBT series) is achieved through passive phase manipulation. Very cool stuff.

See:

http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php

and:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId =89&MId=2

When I first demoed these and did some measurements I began to think of them (the 100LA in particular) as "MA12 killers".

FWIW
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Tom Young
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Jack Littleton

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2010, 08:16:17 pm »

Let me ask you this: Does the fact that speakers placed very closely together couple and act as if they were a single larger speaker qualify to use the term "line array"? They are coupling these little 2 inch speakers (I assume that's part of the principle of their technology) similarly to the way that multiple drivers couple in a line array across multiple cabinets. Does that make the MA12 a "line array"? One of the things that is fascinating/charming about Bose are the little, dinky, speakers that sound much louder than they should.
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Bill Burford

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2010, 08:39:52 pm »

Very interesting stuff.   I checked out the specs on the jbl site.
These do look like they might be the crem de la crem of vertical pc-speaker arrays.

you're right on the semantic thing.. but check out these key words/phrases RIGHT from the JBL brochure for the CBT series: Music-Flat/Speech

"general low level sound requirements"
"video monitors"
"RETAIL" ha ha ha  (dude, I'd LOVE to have these in my shop if I had a shop!!!)
"Conference Rooms"
"Lecture Halls"


actually, the CBT J 70 looks pretty freakin baddass.  They say you can put them outdoors and they make 127 dB!!!!
hell, 4 of those and you got 1 SRX!!!! just kidding.

I'm sure for intercom systems with elevator music.. these are the warmest greatest sounding speakers you'll ever hear.. but at least they don't try to sell you them for your band.
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Jack Littleton

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2010, 09:58:43 pm »

I notice that JBL is calling those CBT's "line arrays". One other thing I read in the Bose white paper is that this type of system only falls off by 3db/doubling of distance, rather than 6db. 127 goes farther when you can beat back the laws of physics, as they were previously known. 6db was how it worked before Dr. Bose arrived on The Planet. And this CBT series is obviously an homage to the master!
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Kristian Johnsen

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Re: Bose panaray
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2010, 01:42:04 pm »

Jack Littleton wrote on Mon, 29 November 2010 19:35

  The Bose are unique. Probably no one would argue that.




HK Audio have launched something similar.

It's a "stick" like the Bose, it can be divided into smaller sections for those places where you just need a small speaker instead.

http://hkaudio.com/elements.php5
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