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[leon garrity]

Hello Ivan,

I removed the NL4 panel to check the spades more thoroughly,i removed the spades individualy from the NL4's and gave the wires a gentle pull,all were ok except for the positive wires on the parralled NL4 it came off the spade quite easily,i then gave the rest of the spades a harder pull and they remained intact.
So this is most likely the problem as you stated in your last message,it wasn't crimped in quite good enough and i think when it was gettin warm and a certain amount of internal pressure was building up within the cainet it was breaking contact from the spade.
I couldn't get the wires to go back into the spade as it has a steel ring around the spade where the cables slot in so i had to solder them onto the NL4,i did it very carefully and made sure it was a very good contact,also that it was not in contact with the minus spade adjacent to the positive.
I then put the plate back in situ,i then proceeded to check the board once more,all the connecting wires were fixed and from the little i know about crossover boards it looks intact.
I think the NL4 was breaking contact as the whole cabinet was going off,I will run it up tonight at the venue and hopefully all should be fine.

kindest reguards Leon.

PS we had some comments off a drummer yesterday at the gig,saying the boxes sounded excellent and looked amazing.

[leon garrity]

Well used the SM60f this weekend at three different venues,still when i push the rig hard the cabinets are still going off.
I have removed anything that could be the fault....

Patch panel removed....So to connect straight to the back of the amps with speaker cables.
32 amp distro unit removed to see whether my amps were overloading that and dropping out.I placed 2 amps on one extention four way.The other amp on another extention cable.Into seperate wall sockets.
performing excellent until you pass a certain point then drop outs?????????
In the EAW KF695 that i used to use there is a passive crossover that eats power and gets hot???????
could the crossover's in the SM60f get hot with too much power and shut off?????????

if i drop the level down slightly on the master faders then we get no dropouts.Now it cant be driver failure as they would just burn out.

Im putting a FP6400 Lab Gruppen on the subs = 2300@4ohms
Im putting a FP3400 Lab gruppen on the tops = 1450@4ohms
Im Putting a 4000c Lab gruppen on the SH100 -4 MLS 600 watts@8 ohms
The subs seem content with the 6400 and dont bat an eyelid at the power but the tops when driven hard don't like it.

If say i dropped the amp that drives the tops  to 1100 watts per side by cutting -2mls on the lab gruppen would that help??????

I currently have the crossover set at 90hz for both subs and tops on a 24db butterworth,would it be wise to raise the crossover point higher so that there isn't as much low energy going to the tops.


reguards Leon

[leon garrity]

Hi folks,

Could someone explain to me as im confused.

On the Danley website it says.....

SH100 300 watts continuous 600 watts program
SM60f 800 watts continuous 1600 watts program
TH115 1000 watts continuous 2000 watts program

now does this mean that the boxes can take the higher wattage?????

and also how do you get to the SPL of a box with lower power rating or the higher one,also i reckon im up at 105 db max on the tops which is well under the rating of 128 max output

reguards Leon

[Ivan Beaver]

leon garrity wrote on Sun, 01 August 2010 20:23

Well used the SM60f this weekend at three different venues,still when i push the rig hard the cabinets are still going off. I have removed anything that could be the fault.... Patch panel removed....So to connect straight to the back of the amps with speaker cables. 32 amp distro unit removed to see whether my amps were overloading that and dropping out.I placed 2 amps on one extention four way.The other amp on another extention cable.Into seperate wall sockets. performing excellent until you pass a certain point then drop outs????????? In the EAW KF695 that i used to use there is a passive crossover that eats power and gets hot??????? could the crossover's in the SM60f get hot with too much power and shut off????????? if i drop the level down slightly on the master faders then we get no dropouts.Now it cant be driver failure as they would just burn out. Im putting a FP6400 Lab Gruppen on the subs = 2300@4ohms Im putting a FP3400 Lab gruppen on the tops = 1450@4ohms Im Putting a 4000c Lab gruppen on the SH100 -4 MLS 600 watts@8 ohms The subs seem content with the 6400 and dont bat an eyelid at the power but the tops when driven hard don't like it. If say i dropped the amp that drives the tops  to 1100 watts per side by cutting -2mls on the lab gruppen would that help?????? I currently have the crossover set at 90hz for both subs and tops on a 24db butterworth,would it be wise to raise the crossover point higher so that there isn't as much low energy going to the tops. reguards Leon

So what has changed?  Up untill now you have been saying that it was ONE cabinet that was having teh problem.  Now it is both?

Are they going out at the same time? or different times?

Is the downtime always the same length? or does it vary from time to time?

Yes there is a passive crossover in the cabinet-but there is no protection and there is a completely seperate path to each of the 3 freq bands (once the main wires get onto the board).  So the odds that "something" in each one of the paths is somehow opening up/failing all at the same time does not exist.

If it was heat related-then it would take time to cool off and would not be out for just a few seconds.

And the parts inside the crossover would be damaged and the cabinet would not "come back to life".

Have you tried a different amplifier?  It now seems to point in that direction.  Have you also tried different loudspeaker cables?  There could be an intermittant in them.  But in both would be in question.

You could try a little bit higher crossover point, as that would have less bass going to the cabinet-but the level of the mids and highs would be the same-and those are being affected as well.

[leon garrity]

Hello Ivan, i have just been reading my manuals for my amps  and the only thing left that could be the problem is if the clip limiters are in on the amps?

When i used the EAW the

3400  was used on the mids where i would never reach clip point,but with the Danleys i use this amp on the tops full range and when run hard it might be limiting? so  that might be the reason im hearing dropouts.Like ive said before  it cant be damage to the boxes so its got to be something a little too straight forward which im missing?????????

because ive never run the amp up this high i would have never got to the point the asmps limiters would kick in??????

reguards Leon

[Ivan Beaver]

leon garrity wrote on Sun, 01 August 2010 21:22

Hello Ivan, i have just been reading my manuals for my amps  and the only thing left that could be the problem is if the clip limiters are in on the amps? When i used the EAW the 3400  was used on the mids where i would never reach clip point,but with the Danleys i use this amp on the tops full range and when run hard it might be limiting? so  that might be the reason im hearing dropouts.Like ive said before  it cant be damage to the boxes so its got to be something a little too straight forward which im missing????????? because ive never run the amp up this high i would have never got to the point the asmps limiters would kick in?????? reguards Leon

A limiter should not cut out the sound.  It could be that the amp has a problem and is just shutting down for a short period of time.  There is a good bit of protection built into modern amps. Maybe one of those is kicking in.

I get calls all the time in which people "think" there are problems with the loudspeakers.  The reason is that the loudspeaker is the last thing in the chain and is the only place people can "hear" what is going on.

In just about every case-the problem is somewhere in the signal chain-a filter they didn't know was there-a limiter set wrong- a miswiring, oscillation in the system etc.  

I have a current such problem on an install that reused 4 existing amps for the subs and it "appears" that the subs are the problem.  But I don't think so, and a couple of hours of troubleshooting has still not produced any real answers.  I will get back to it next week.

These things are not always easy to narrow down.

[leon garrity]

Hello Ivan,

Just checking something by you

does max voltage have reference to the danley speakers?

my amps give the following

fp3400 = 94 volts  for the SM60f

fp6400 = 104 volts for the TH115

lab 1300c 56 volts for the SH100

Im just trying to know that im not pushing too much in to the boxes.
When i used the EAW rig the UX8800 set the limiters automatically when you told the UX what the amps max voltage was,so it new how much to give to the drivers.

[Ivan Beaver]

The max voltage falls into the limiter setting arena in which there is a lot of "it depends" and no real hard values.

94 volts is a tad over 2200 watts.  That would be a bit much for the SM60F.  Although it can take it as part of a signal with a full dynamic range.

Assuming the "max volts" is a peak limiter-I would set it around 80V (or a little bit lower-just to be safe-depending on program material)

If you have a slower attack limiter,(sometimes called a RMS limiter) I would set it around 50 Volts.

I would use 90V peak and 64V RMS for the TH115.  But those could be set a tad higher-depending on program material.

[leon garrity]

Hello and thanks for the reply once again,

I took a look at the UX8800

the limiter was set to on,
the threshold was 20dbv
the attack was 1ms
the release was 100ms
the ratio was 8.1
the knee was hard

would i be better off turning it off as i dont know what to set it to?

kindest reguards Leon

[Ivan Beaver]

leon garrity wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 09:56

Hello and thanks for the reply once again, I took a look at the UX8800 the limiter was set to on, the threshold was 20dbv the attack was 1ms the release was 100ms the ratio was 8.1 the knee was hard would i be better off turning it off as i dont know what to set it to? kindest reguards Leon

Depending on how the rest of the system is setup gain structure wise (amp level control) the limiter in the 880 is probably not doing anything anyway-not with a +20dBV threshold.

What does it show when you are playing music?  Is it limiting?