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[Matthew Ramsey]

Hey all, I'm currently trying to design a small/med system to provide sound for a campus group I'm part of.  The room is very hard to fit, as it is fairly large, approx. 80'x80' with a ceiling height of only 8.5'.   In the past, they have used low end jbl speakers (15" jrx) spaced throughout the room, but the end effect is a muddied sound lacking clarity in the mid range.  What I have been thinking about is using the jbl vrx line powered line arrays, the vrx932LAP, 2 per side of the stage on poles coming out of vrx918SP subs, 1 per side, with the possibility of two per side via height req.  If shaded right, I think it would be able to throw the sound out above all the people, as the room is packed with almost 500 for a weeknight bible study, while not being overwhelming to the people in the front.  I know this system works best with 2x lines/2x subs per side with the bottom line at around 9ish feet, but as we don't have the height for that, are the any thoughts for other ways to fill the room with sound?  Our budget is flexible, and with the vrx's, would be just under 20,000.  Any other thoughts on a way to get sound through the room without phase issues of multiple speaker placement, and without the issues of bodies soaking up sound?  Thanks in advance for all thoughts and hints.

Thanks-- Matt

[Milt Hathaway]

The only real solution for a room of that size with that low of a ceiling will be a large number of ceiling-mounted speakers. Done right, and with the right equipment, it will come in under your budget and give much more even coverage of the room.

Of course, this assumes you can put speakers IN the ceiling.

[Matthew Ramsey]

Hmmm... I haven't given much thought to this, because of the type of music played--this is a contemporary christian service--loud music, and I don't think I've ever seen an install of ceiling speakers that gave full support to a band.  Also, the system needs to be portable, if possible, to take on retreats, so a permanent install, if at all possible, would like to be avoided.  Do you think that in-ceiling speakers would be enough support? and if so, which ones? Community?  Thanks!

[Ivan Beaver]

Matthew Ramsey wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 13:58

Hmmm... I haven't given much thought to this, because of the type of music played--this is a contemporary christian service--loud music, and I don't think I've ever seen an install of ceiling speakers that gave full support to a band.  Also, the system needs to be portable, if possible, to take on retreats, so a permanent install, if at all possible, would like to be avoided.  Do you think that in-ceiling speakers would be enough support? and if so, which ones? Community?  Thanks!

If it needs to be portable-then ceiling speakers are out.

FWIW we do installs all the time in rooms like that and use the Atlas FAP42 full range and SUB70 for subs.  If you use enough of them and enough subs and do it right (large cable-decent amps-proper alignment etc) the results can be much better than expected.

Since you will be using the system in different places-you just have to understand that sometimes the limitations are the room-and that is just the way it is.

You need to choose a system will fit the largest variety of the places you plan on using it in.

In any case-for the room in question-you need to get the HF drivers as close to the ceiling as possible-for any hope to get sound to the back-without killing those in front.

[Matthew Ramsey]

So do you think given the circumstances that the VRX line might suit the room well?  The lines would be almost touching the ceiling, and they only disperse down 15 degrees, or 30 total degrees, so if the bottom line was -3 db, and the top +3/or even flat, and they were mounted on top of the subs on poles, with the top line aimed straight out at around 8', do you think this would cover well?  The ceiling is drop btw.

Thanks, Matt

[Ivan Beaver]

Cover well and doing the best you can in the circumstance are often very different things.

I would think you would stand as good a chance with the VRX as anything else-except a true line array that has a very narrow coverage pattern and you could shade the individual cabinets to get  more of just the HF to the back of the room.

Even then it would be what I would consider even coverage-but may be a little bit better-in terms of HF in the back of the room.

But that would require more boxes-more processing and more alignment skill/knowledge and may not suit your other needs.

[Matthew Ramsey]

Yeah, but more boxes means more height to get them up to cover the room right, headroom we don't have.   That's why I was looking into their "fake" line arrays.  And more boxes means more money, that we don't have.  Do you know of any other systems that might be able to do the job better for not much more money?  I was looking at the meyer md1's, but I don't know what to expect price wise.

Thanks, Matt

[Ivan Beaver]

Whatever you choose that is portable would be what I would consider the wrong tool for the job.  It may get it done-within certain restrictions.

Whatever you choose-you probably need to make sure that the highest cabinet is facing all the way back-with no real down angle-or only a degree or so.

You want as much energy to head towards the back of the room-and stay away from the people that are up close.

An alternative would be to add some delay cabinets halfway back in the room.

This would mean more cabinets-amps-cables-stands-alignment and so forth-but could really help the situation.

[Duane Massey]

As Ivan has said, anything you choose will be a compromise. I'd consider the delay speakers halfway back, BUT aimed back, not sideways ( a common mistake0. It will take more time to set up, but it will get the best coverage with the least amount of damage to those up front.

[James Clerie]

I think that when we try to make a system to do many thing we end up with a system that does many thing ok but not great or even good.

Design the system for the task at hand. make it sound great in the room. I would push toward in ceiling speakers and a couple of small subs, Community cloud series sound great. They have in celling subs also in the cloud line. http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/brochures/CLOUD -IO_BROCHURE.pdf

If you design it right the only permanent thing will be the speakers. Make you rack portable use the amps and processing for the inside and the remote.