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Author Topic: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k  (Read 12557 times)

Dan Bouchard

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LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« on: June 05, 2010, 08:58:10 AM »

So after owning par cans for over a decade im just sick of the whole thing and cant understand why people still request traditional cans - My 1k's are constantly having issues (shit its just a tube with a socket in it) but between the sockets denigrating and soc cables shifting, sparks from cans, burning my self when im checking a fixture.. the amount of fixtures it takes to even wash a stage with 4 separate colors (never mind 8 or 10) dealing with dimmer packs that cost a fortune but do very little and need a buttload of power.... I feel its time for the change.

I recently found 52x3w RGB/A Par64 - actually they look like opti pars but anyhoo, they are weather proof and from the data and photos ive seen they can out perform a 1k bulb with a gel in it. Now it wont out perform it with no gel.... but i can live with that. The can do pretty much any color that a gel can do.

When LD's request 120k of 1k's it seems simply to cover the stage with multible colors which you need 20 cans of each gel to accomplish. So it seems to me 40 high power LED's (20 front / 20 back) would give you the same effect (better really - you dont have to select gel colors...you can have them all)

I could do it with 1 30a cable on each truss as opposed to 800lbs of socopex. and best of all i can feel good about reducing my companies carbon footprint. Not to mention it will take half as much time and effort to pack, set up and tear down which in effect cost my clients less for a better show (IMHO)

How much longer will artist be looking for the same look that every band has been using since the dawn of stage lighting?

any thoughts? am i crazy?

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Dan
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2010, 10:08:47 AM »

Any LED fixture that does not include white LEDs will not give you a natural looking white.  So if you DO go all LED, consider either keeping some of your PARs (or other filament-based fixtures), or adding some white LED fixtures to the rig.
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James Feenstra

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2010, 10:39:12 AM »

Main reasons for par 64s over LEDs;
multiple colors up at the same time
multiple focuses
natural whites (i still have difficulty getting a good tungsten white out of a lot of led fixtures)
smoother dimming (for the most part LEDs snap colors and don't dim as nicely)
familiarity for lds that may not be used to programming LEDs
sharper beam angle (unless you get into really high end LEDs, they generally don't get sharper than about 15 degrees...a vnsp is tighter than that)

mind you, as a provider, LEDs have a lot more advantages than disadvantages over conventionals, and they're definitely more client and environment friendly.
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James Feenstra
Lighting, Audio and Special Effects Design

Dan Bouchard

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2010, 11:13:50 AM »

I have two options with the fixtures RGB and Amber or RGB and white - not sure what the benifits of either are really but i was leaning towards amber as i most likely will still use 6 ellipsoidals on the front truss.

Im sure i may lose some battles im seriously weighing the benifits vs the couple of lost traditional event i might have to sub out if i sell off.
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Dan
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Dan Bouchard

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2010, 11:15:08 AM »

ps - thanks for the reply's - knowledge is king!
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Dan
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Craig Leerman

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 11:25:09 AM »

Quote:

When LD's request 120k of 1k's it seems simply to cover the stage with multible colors which you need 20 cans of each gel to accomplish. So it seems to me 40 high power LED's (20 front / 20 back) would give you the same effect (better really - you dont have to select gel colors...you can have them all)


True, but in addition to just washing a color on stage, a larger conventional par rig also gives you a different LOOK (especially with VN and N bulbs), and the ability to bump a lot of cans on at the same time.

Not that I am saying one look is better or worse than the other, but it is a completely different look onstage with pars verses LEDs.

If I were designing a big rig to replace a 120 can show, I would use RGB LEDS for color washes, White LEDS for some additional front lighting, and some Pars for ACLs, and specials.  That would be the best of both worlds to me.

I would also wire up and address the rig so that I could do different colors on different LEDS, so I could crossfade from one bank of cans to another bank (like a PAR look) instead of having every LED can on at the same time. That way 2 or 3 or more color combos can be used at the same time.  I am real big on multi color looks onstage, not just a single color.



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I'm so old, when I was doing FOH for Tommy Dorsey, to balance out the horn section I would slide their chairs downstage and upstage to mix!


Rob Timmerman

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2010, 06:41:27 PM »

James Feenstra wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 10:39


natural whites (i still have difficulty getting a good tungsten white out of a lot of led fixtures)
smoother dimming (for the most part LEDs snap colors and don't dim as nicely)
sharper beam angle (unless you get into really high end LEDs, they generally don't get sharper than about 15 degrees...a vnsp is tighter than that)



Most of the optic suppliers for LED fixture manufacturers have no problem making optics that give an 8-10 degree beam, which compares quite well to the 6x12 degree beam angle of an FFN lamp or the 7x14 degree beam angle of an FFP lamp.  Getting much narrower, however, is difficult (although can be done - I know of at least one LED unit that has a 5 degree beam).

Smooth dimming is a function both of the fixture and the control console.  Most theatrical consoles allow you to modify the dimming curve for each channel, allowing you to have somewhat better control over your dimming.  Better consoles also allow you to add fade times between colors, eliminating that "snap" if you don't like it.  

There are also limits imposed by the fact that DMX is only 8-bit control unless you use multiple channels per color.  Of course, that speed is an advantage too - LEDs can strobe as well as most purpose-built strobe units and moving lights, and I don't know of any other technology that can change color as quickly.

As far as natural looking whites go, modern white LEDs look quite good.  Creating white by mixing a relatively small number of discrete wavelengths will never look natural - colors will tend to oversaturate, even though the "white" color as projected onto a white wall may match your reference source exactly.

<rant>
I guess I'm getting a bit tired of the spreading of disinformation about LED technology based on bottom-of-barrel examples of fixtures.  It reminds me a bit of the old "horns are honky" blanket statements, even though modern horns are not at all honky sounding.
</rant>

<disclaimer>
I work for Color Kinetics, a manufacturer of LED lighting fixtures.
</disclaimer>
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Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2010, 07:46:55 PM »

From what I have seen of LED fixtures and I don’t know a lot about them so maybe someone will correct me. When looking into an LED fixture you don’t see the mixed color, you see the individual colors of the LEDs.  You only see the mixed color on what the fixture is shinning on. So you don’t get that look of a gelled can from the audience perspective. And that is part of the lighting look.

I wish that the LED fixtures would look like a gelled light when looking into them. I think if they overcome that issue it would make them more usable. Someone on here had a workaround that involved a par LED with a deep enough fixture with a prismatic plastic piece on the front of it to diffuse the LEDs. I understand that it did absorb a bit of the light in the process.  
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Kevin Maxwell
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Chris Michalowski

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2010, 09:07:37 PM »

Kevin, there are many fixtures such as this one
http://www.elationlighting.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ItemNumbe r=1616&MainId=1&Category=LED%20Lighting
that mix colors inside the fixture.  Granted, they do have several spots on them, but with a diffusion gel it would probably look almost, if not exactly like a regular gelled PAR.
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: LED Par64 vs Par64-1k
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2010, 02:39:21 AM »

Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 19:46

From what I have seen of LED fixtures and I don’t know a lot about them so maybe someone will correct me. When looking into an LED fixture you don’t see the mixed color, you see the individual colors of the LEDs.  You only see the mixed color on what the fixture is shinning on. So you don’t get that look of a gelled can from the audience perspective. And that is part of the lighting look.

I wish that the LED fixtures would look like a gelled light when looking into them. I think if they overcome that issue it would make them more usable. Someone on here had a workaround that involved a par LED with a deep enough fixture with a prismatic plastic piece on the front of it to diffuse the LEDs. I understand that it did absorb a bit of the light in the process.  



LEDs, unlike virtually all other light sources, emit relatively narrow-spectrum light (white LEDs get a broader spectrum by adding a phosphor).  This allows for additive color mixing, instead of subtractive color mixing (color filters).  For this additive mixing to occur within the fixture (and not in the space between the fixture and the object it is illuminating), either the output from all the LED channels needs to be mixed in some flavor of optical train, of the LEDs need to be packed close enough together so as to be perceived as a single source by the human eye.  This last approach is a function of both the LED spacing and the viewing distance.

Mixing multiple color channels within an optical train isn't that difficult - it's done in 3-chip projectors all the time.  The problem is that it's bulky, complex, and not horribly efficient.  Very few fixtures are using this approach (I know of 2, both from the same manufacturer).  Putting a diffuser some distance in front of the fixture is an example of this.

Getting the sources close together is the simpler approach, but it has its own collection of problems.  First is that you need an LED package that has multiple color channels in the same package.  Second, packing more LEDs (and thus more power) into a smaller area, the thermal management problem becomes more complex.  Third, getting consistent color becomes more difficult because you can no longer bin each color individually - your package has multiple color channels, each with their own binning.  So you've gone from x bins per LED to x^n bins, where n is the number of color channels.  And then there's the sourcing issue.  Not all LED vendors make multichannel packages, and those that do aren't putting their latest technology into those packages.  The available multichannel packages are all a generation behind cutting edge (at least).  Multicolor packages also have a larger emitting area, often with different optical centers for each color.  This makes getting narrow beams difficult, if not impossible, at least if you don't want significant beam artifacts.  The Elation fixtures listed are using a tri-LED, which puts 3 colors of LED in a single package, complete with all the associated drawbacks.

That said, colormixing within the fixture not only eliminates the "Lite Brite" look, but also helps to eliminate the multicolored shadows you get from LEDs that are spaced out.  There are also advantages to spacing out the LEDs, instead of combining them all into a single source.  Higher brightness, higher efficiency, and passive thermal management are all advantages of using multiple single-color LEDs.

As designers, though, we need to understand the different tools at our disposal, realize that each one has strengths and weaknesses, and choose the right one for the job at hand.  

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