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Author Topic: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?  (Read 25811 times)

Chris Van Duker

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Re: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 03:12:15 pm »

The Beatroute article you linked certainly has some factual inaccuracies in it. I don't have a PK rig, and Bassnectar has played on my rig several times both at Burning Man and the Bay Area, and Beats Antique quite a few times at BM. I've seen them both play on other rigs as well, none with the PK logo. It would be silly to put a "nothing but PK in North America" stipulation on a rider, if you wanted to play on a regular basis.

I've seen plenty of LabSubs at Burning Man, including my own, as well as many of the other major and minor loudspeaker manufacturers, but I don't remember seeing anything with PK on it.

I'll get in touch with those artists and see if their "endorsements" ever really happened.

(Edited to clarify 2nd paragraph)
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Tom Danley

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Re: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 03:21:15 pm »

Hi Guys

To be clear, the lab sub is similar to a BT-7 except for the driver arrangement, one finds there is only so much of a given horn can be put in a given box ha-ha.  
I had settled on that generic “snail” shape on an earlier box, the TPL-3 as it required the least bending.
On the picture of the bt-7, the white pipes were for a forced air cooling system which all but eliminated power compression.  That fan ran off of some amount of amplifiers power so it’s speed went up and down with the signal.

I went back and looked in an old file and found a  “possible group project” post  on 1-1-2002.  At that point it was just getting started, no drivers yet.  If McJerry is monitoring, he might be able to find out when he made the samples

The project came about when some one here on PSW suggested a group build of some W bins and a following discussion of drivers.
At that time, there was some major folk lore surrounding the driver parameters needed for a given horn.

I guess you could say the lead up went this way.
I have built electronic things and loudspeakers my whole life so I relate to the diy’r, I have made a lot of cabinets and sawdust.

After giving up hopes of being in a band and then the speaker business and then doing electronic repairs for years etc I got a good job in 1978 at Intersonics inc.  
I worked for 18 years at Intersonics inc, a NASA experimental hardware contractor and they needed a lot of hats filled when I started.
My bosses were an old English acoustician and a Physicist from Fermi labs and former physics teacher.
It was a great opportunity for me, I waved my hands and drew pictures and they would tell me what I was talking about.  I see things working physically my mind, not in math.

Anyway, I was able to make some large improvements in the acoustic levitation transducers and systems they used so the owner gave me some latitude.  
I had the idea for the Servodrive speaker on an airplane ride back from Huntsville.
After number #3 sounded good enough to bring in, Roy the president (being a hifi buff) said I could pursue a speaker business on the side as long as it only cost heat and lights.

Maybe 10 years later, the company had grown, we had flown hardware on a couple sounding rocket and two shuttle flights. I had one foot in the Speaker division and one foot on the NASA side.  I had a really good mathematician named Dan Riordan assigned to help me on the NASA side and I posed that I needed a way to model sound traveling though a passage which will be defined and through a temperature gradient.
In these systems the sound source won’t last long if exposed to the 1500 degree C heat so it has to travel down a passageway to get into the furnace.
I should explain, the whole point of acoustic levitation is that there is no container, at very high temperatures, one runs out of materials that you can use as a “cup” that doesn’t cause nucleation or impurities.
Having secondary purposes in mind, I asked that it could also be driven by a set of T&S parameters “like a loudspeaker”.
Thus after considerable work on his part and by dumping the temperature gradient and doodling dimensions, I had a tool which could model a given horn’s response, ah….even a motor driven bass horn.

I used that and a couple others of Dan’s mathcad programs to design the BT-7 and others and when the lab sub project came to be, I thought hey, I’ll use these programs to make something powerful with normal drivers.

So, when somebody talks about indirect benefit from the space program, well the Lab sub alignment is an unexpected example.
At one point I had to decide if I was going to go into payload specialist training or stay and focus on the speaker business.    Between being sure I would be plagued by nausea in zero G and the speaker biz growing,  I passed on the Astronaut training.
Anyway, it wouldn’t have worked out as the first shuttle disaster ended our flight hardware contracts, no one got to go past the vomit comet training and it had that name for a real reason..
Man, I’m feeling old now.
Best,
Tom Danley


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Elliot Thompson

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Re: Huh?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 04:15:35 pm »

Winston Gamble wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 17:20

Elliot Thompson wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 11:38


From my eyes, the Lab Sub (internally) is exactly like the Servodrive Basstech 7 which stems from the 80's designed by Tom Danley. The photo below is the Servodrive Basstech 7


http://i49.tinypic.com/333zuh2.jpg

Here is the Lab Sub

http://www.paulstech.com/img/lab12/P1020403.JPG


It is amazing someone would insinuate they are the original designer of the Lab Sub.

Best Regards,

Either you have a different definition of "exactly", or you need to have your eyes checked. Laughing

Winston


Really?

Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 20:21

Hi Guys

To be clear, the lab sub is similar to a BT-7 except for the driver arrangement, one finds there is only so much of a given horn can be put in a given box ha-ha.  



I rest my case. Laughing

Best Regards,
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Elliot

Mac Kerr

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Re: Huh?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 04:27:49 pm »

Elliot Thompson wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 16:15

Winston Gamble wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 17:20

Elliot Thompson wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 11:38


From my eyes, the Lab Sub (internally) is exactly like the Servodrive Basstech 7 which stems from the 80's designed by Tom Danley. The photo below is the Servodrive Basstech 7


http://i49.tinypic.com/333zuh2.jpg

Here is the Lab Sub

http://www.paulstech.com/img/lab12/P1020403.JPG


It is amazing someone would insinuate they are the original designer of the Lab Sub.

Best Regards,

Either you have a different definition of "exactly", or you need to have your eyes checked. Laughing

Winston


Really?

Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 20:21

Hi Guys

To be clear, the lab sub is similar to a BT-7 except for the driver arrangement, one finds there is only so much of a given horn can be put in a given box ha-ha.  



I rest my case. Laughing

Best Regards,


Maybe it is your eyes you should rest. Yeah, they both have "snail" horns. Wow.

Mac
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Al Smith

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Re: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 06:26:11 pm »

Geez, that was a lot of posts to go through.

So it appears that PK took Mr. Danly's idea?  
[that is a good story btw]

And the claim of the Bassnectar band only playing on pk subs is bogus?  




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Art Welter

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Re: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 07:28:58 pm »

Al Smith wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 16:26

Geez, that was a lot of posts to go through.

So it appears that PK took Mr. Danly's idea?  
[that is a good story btw]

And the claim of the Bassnectar band only playing on pk subs is bogus?  




I couldn’t care less if Bassnectar only wanted to play on one type of sub, whether true or not.

The concept of a spiral horn is not new, Western Electric had spiral horns starting in the 1920’s. People have been blowing through conch horns and tubas long before that.
index.php/fa/28499/0/
The box size of 45 x45 x 22.5 is very common, integers of a standard truck box of 90 x 90.

Clair Brothers S4 cabinets were built to this size in the 1970s.

I built horn cabinets that size in 1981, with the grill on they would have been hard to tell from a BT7.

There are lots of designs now using that size with spiral horns, but Tom Danley was the the first to combine that size with a spiral horn as far as I know.

Art Welter
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?-Interesting
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2010, 08:13:46 pm »

WOW, I thought your were kidding when you posted that PSW stole the idea. Shocked   And just wanting to point out somebody who was apparently doing a commerical build of the Lab Sub. Ya know- "heads up" kinda thing.

It is hard to tell if PK's cabinets are the same stolen design-or something different that just looks kinda the same.

A quick tell would be what drivers they are using and an internal shot or two. Or better yet some plans.

It would also be interesting to hear him explain his design concepts and horn theory.  Does he have any other designs?

The funny thing is that Danley got a note about this a day or two before you posted. Rolling Eyes Don't know if there is a relation or not there.

If they are selling the design-then that is a copyright infringment.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Dave Rickard

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Duane Massey

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Re: Why did PSW copy PK's bass bin?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 10:18:38 pm »

Interesting thread, but it makes me really appreciate even more Tom D's contributions to this forum.
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Duane Massey
Houston, Texas, USA

Elliot Thompson

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Re: Huh?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 12:35:22 am »

Mac Kerr wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 21:27


Maybe it is your eyes you should rest. Yeah, they both have "snail" horns. Wow.

Mac




The driver arrangement changing is expected since the Basstech 7 used two 15-inch drivers whereas, the Lab Sub utilise two twelve’s. It is like changing the port length in a reflex cabinet when using a different driver than the cabinet was designed for. If one would replace the stock drivers in a JBL SRX 728 with B&C 18 TBX 100s the port tuning would need the be adjusted to correct the electrical and mechanical differences of the TBX 100 being inserted in SRX 728.

Dimension wise the Basstech 7 & the Lab Sub are alike. The frequency response of the cabinets based on Serodrive Basstech 7’s spec sheet, and the measured Lab Sub results using praxis which stem from the Subwoofer Shootout dating from 2003 are a like.

Horns are very finicky creatures. It is very hard for two cabinets to deliver the same frequency response while offering the same cabinet dimensions unless they are one in the same.

The Lab 12 was designed around the Lab Horn’s characteristics. If it weren’t for Eminence, there would have never been a Lab Sub. The interest of the Lab Sub became so great there was a sub forum made solely for that purpose. A lot of valuable information was lost on the Live Audio forum. It seems the Lab Sub section on the old board never made it to the Lab archives.

Best Regards,

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Elliot
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