ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Bh760 or SB1000  (Read 5656 times)

Terry Ruch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Bh760 or SB1000
« on: February 15, 2010, 02:01:47 pm »

Hello Everyone!

Just wanted to get your opinion on the BH760 or SB1000. Currently we have 6 BH760 in pairs under the stage at our church. I have never been happy with the sound we have been able to get out of them. To me they don't have much low end punch. From what I have read, these are supposed to have plenty of punch. We are powering each pair with a Crown Cts2000. I am thinking about switching over to the SB1000. I have heard these subs and have liked what I heard.

Anybody have any opinions? Or any recommendations for the BH760's or another sub that you like better than the SB1000?

Thanks!
Logged

Art Welter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4874
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 02:26:45 pm »

Terry Ruch wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 12:01

Hello Everyone!

Just wanted to get your opinion on the BH760 or SB1000. Currently we have 6 BH760 in pairs under the stage at our church. I have never been happy with the sound we have been able to get out of them. To me they don't have much low end punch. From what I have read, these are supposed to have plenty of punch. We are powering each pair with a Crown Cts2000. I am thinking about switching over to the SB1000. I have heard these subs and have liked what I heard.

Anybody have any opinions? Or any recommendations for the BH760's or another sub that you like better than the SB1000?

Thanks!

Have you time aligned the BH760 to your top cabinets?

Have you equalized them?
Logged

Brandon G Romanowski

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 714
    • http://indigoproductions.net/indigo_concert_audio_dept.htm
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 07:14:31 pm »

Horn loaded subs don't punch the same way double 18" reflex boxes do. I would suggest you get some SB1000's. But for now  I would take some measurements and make sure you are properly processing the BH760's
Logged
Brandon G. Romanowski
Indigo Concert Audio Dept.
http://indigoproductions.net/indigo_concert_audio_dept.htm

Terry Ruch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 09:47:51 pm »

Yes, the system is timed.  However, it is a interesting system.  It is a fanned shaped worship center with 2800 seats.  It is split into 3 sections, each of them having LCR.  There is front fills on the stage, fills shooting down from the first catwalk, speakers filling middle section from the first catwalk and speakers filling the stadium seating from the second catwalk.  There are 3 sets of 2 subs under the stage and 2 delay subs.  With all this said, the designer has some interesting timing to get rid of combing.  

The comments that we have got from the system is that the sound is "swirling" around them.  There is significant decay in the room, about 2.5 seconds.  I would love to get that down and I am sure that it would help.  

Right now I am just unhappy with the sound that we get out of the BH760.  I am hoping to get some advice on how to improve this sound from them, or if it would be worth the time and money to switch over to the SB1000 or something different.  

Logged

Terry Ruch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 09:55:26 pm »

How would you describe the punch of a horn loaded sub?  To me it sounds very "smooth" and almost a bid muddy.  No doubt they do put out SPL but I have had a hard time getting the punch that hits you in the chest.  

What would you suggest checking to make sure they are processed correctly?  I am not a guru, but I do know my way around they system.  I am enjoying taking measurement in SMAART.  What should I be looking for?  
Logged

John Chiara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2186
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 01:24:59 am »

Terry Ruch wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 21:55

How would you describe the punch of a horn loaded sub?  To me it sounds very "smooth" and almost a bid muddy.  No doubt they do put out SPL but I have had a hard time getting the punch that hits you in the chest.  

What would you suggest checking to make sure they are processed correctly?  I am not a guru, but I do know my way around they system.  I am enjoying taking measurement in SMAART.  What should I be looking for?  


One observation. Do you want "chest punching" sound in a church setting? I find this so called "punch" to be tiring to listen to. When I hear a high end studio system the low end is even and deep, not punching me in the chest. I find many a BE who also goes for this sound, which reminds me of systems from the "70's and '80's that were punchy because they had no response below 60hz.
I would think a central bass array...ala Metallica...would be best if possible.
Logged
"mix is a verb, not a noun" Sooo, as Aunt Bea would say.."Get to it!!!"

John A. Chiara aka. Blind Johnny
Albany Audio Associates Inc.
Troy, NY
518-961-0069 - cell

Langston Holland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 908
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 02:11:38 am »

Terry wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010:

Just wanted to get your opinion on the BH760 or SB1000. Currently we have 6 BH760 in pairs under the stage at our church. I have never been happy with the sound we have been able to get out of them. To me they don't have much low end punch. From what I have read, these are supposed to have plenty of punch. We are powering each pair with a Crown Cts2000. I am thinking about switching over to the SB1000. I have heard these subs and have liked what I heard.

Anybody have any opinions? Or any recommendations for the BH760's or another sub that you like better than the SB1000?


Hi Terry - I have spent quite a bit of time with the BH760 and that sub has all kinds of punch and low end. It's quality of sound can definitely be improved with a 2 or 3dB cut with a BW of .5 or Q=2 at 74Hz. IMO, you should also place a 4th order Linkwitz Riley low pass filter right around the same frequency to get most of the "horn" sound out of it. EAW's recommended processing spec's for high pass and the two parametric EQ settings should be followed in addition to my suggestions.

Fact: if any of my suggestions above are not already implemented (I'm sure they are not obviously), you will change the phase and/or magnitude of the subs' alignment with your top cabinets. If they are aligned properly at present, my cure would make the patient even more sick unless you know how to align a complex system like you have. If you're not sure about this and the budget is there, it would be very wise to call in someone who is experienced with this sort of thing. Yep, I'm offering. :)

Another glaring issue is that the poor subs are way underpowered. Generally you should try to have amplifiers that have twice the long-term output power as the sub's rating. Those subs are rated at 1,600 watts at 4 ohms long-term and you are only suppling them with 1,000 watts. If you bridged those amps (and purchased 3 more so you'd have one per sub), you'd still only have 2,000 watts available. This would be a big improvement (if those amps function well in bridged mode), though it would be best to have 3,000 watts or more available.

Just getting the right sized amps might fix the problem. If you can afford it, it's a little better to get amps that don't need to be bridged to achieve the power of interest.

Here's a thought: The SB1002 is requires even more power than the BH760. Get amps that can do 3 or 4 thousand watts into 4 ohms (both subs have a 4 ohm rating) and see if that fixes it - or gets you close - proper processing is likely to get you the rest of the way there. If the larger amps don't fix it, they will be useful for the SB1002's if you go that route afterwards. There is that ugly possibility that the subs are positioned poorly - which is often not something you can modify. Clever delay and/or phase tuning of the subs relative to each other can skin most of that cat as well.
Logged
God bless you and your precious family - Langston

Soundscapes <><

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: Bh760 or SB1000-Placement?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 07:43:58 am »

Terry Ruch wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 21:47

Yes, the system is timed.  However, it is a interesting system.  It is a fanned shaped worship center with 2800 seats.  It is split into 3 sections, each of them having LCR.  There is front fills on the stage, fills shooting down from the first catwalk, speakers filling middle section from the first catwalk and speakers filling the stadium seating from the second catwalk.  There are 3 sets of 2 subs under the stage and 2 delay subs.  With all this said, the designer has some interesting timing to get rid of combing.  



I think there is a lot of your problem.

I would not worry so much about a particular sub model-as I would about sub placement.

With 3 sets of subs and delay subs-you will have all kinds "smearing" going on.

Yes you may have it "timed" for alignment-but timed to what/where? Unless you are doing something to physically control the dispertion-you will have all kinds of energy going in every direction-NOT just forward.

With any type of delay loudspeaker- you HAVE to be concerned with what happens on the BACK side-because there is energy coming out of there.

You can't just "spread subs around" like you would with more directional full range boxes.  They mess with each other.

Of course I am only going off of your description-and don't know the specifics-but before you start blaming the tool- you need to look at how it is used.

I have no opinion either way on the subs you are talking about-just about possibly how they are used.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Terry Ruch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: Bh760 or SB1000-Placement?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 10:46:21 am »

The forward subs are under the stage in their own concrete holes.  As far as the whole delay ring of speaker and subs, there is no control mechanism to keep the sound behind the speaker controlled.  I do know what you mean about that problem, and if it were up to me I would have done this system very different from the beginning.  Just hoping I can salvage something out of it without having to spend too much money.
Logged

Art Welter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4874
Re: Bh760 or SB1000
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 11:00:11 am »

I would agree with Ivan, too many positions, bass going everywhere in a room with 2.5 seconds decay is not conducive to “punch”.

Of the BH760 and the SB1002, if I were looking for “punch”, I’d be more inclined to go with the BH760, though neither really defines "punch" to me.

And as Langston pointed out, the SB1002 requires more power for the same level.

One last point, “punch” is directly related to damping factor. Long speaker cables on subs can reduce damping drastically. If the sub speaker cables are less than 12 gauge and more than 25 feet, lack of damping could be a contribution to the “swirling sound”.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.06 seconds with 15 queries.