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[Tony Ly]

Duncan McLennan wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 05:28

How much and what type of power are you driving those subs with Art?  And how big are the cabinets? I might consider building one if it fits the bill.

Care to post a picture? I wouldn't minding one to try for drum fill also.

[Al Limberg]

With the new release of the LAB15 from Eminence, compact single 15" drum subs might be pretty interesting.  Jerry McNutt has posted 4.5 and 10 cubic foot .pdf plans at the Eminence site.

?;o)
Al

[Marjan Milosevic]

I dont think that Lab speakers are usable as main FOH subwoofers in BR boxes. That design that Al is mentioning is offering a maximum 124Db output. Yes it does go low but not loud enough.

There are lots of box designs that will do much better.

[Pete Koch]

Yes, indeed.
I am sure the small lab ported subs sound great, but there are a zillion driver/box combinations one could use and get 40hz all day long with more efficiency in a 15 or 18" format.
The tradeoff comes with how many boxes do you need to haul/stack, and if carrying 8 subs instead of four LS808's, for example, is really an "upgrade".
The efficiency at 50-100hz is more important to me for live sound, than flat to 35 hz, and inefficient. No 12" woofer is gonna be more than 92db or so (outside), which is 10db below a double 18", or a single horn/semi horn or scoop design.
It's all a tradoff, and I think the OP was looking for an improvement in sound/output in a reasonable footprint.
I would rather roll in 2 to 4 large wheeled cabs, than carry/stack a half dozen per side and get the same thump from a kick drum/bass guitar.
I've done several ported design over the years using JBL 15/18 woofers. They all sounded great, but the 18's always seem to win out, no matter the design. I guess I just like the sound of them in the kick region, whether ported or scoop loaded, etc.
BTW, nice work, Art. I am sure the labs ported sound killer!
Not trying to downplay your design/input here..at all.

I still think Rusty needs to try an upgraded ceramic driver, and use Crest amps before he dumps the 808's.
Another 808 owner on here, tiring of the boominess, got Pro200 amps and was blown away at the difference in the tightness.
I use CC series amps, and frankly never understood all of the dissing on the boxes...mine sound punchy, and follow the notes well...but the cc series is basically a  pro200 series...except with a conventional power supply (which crest engineers say actually has BETTER bass than the regulated supply in the pro series, believe it or not)
I just know they work well together.
Pete

[Rusty Irby]

Well I am not getting rid of the 808's. I will still keep them. I am wanting to add some subs, since I can get the boxes made for free.

Where do I go to actually get some great plans on building great subs?

[Art Welter]

Marjan Milosevic wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 09:16

I dont think that Lab speakers are usable as main FOH subwoofers in BR boxes. That design that Al is mentioning is offering a maximum 124Db output. Yes it does go low but not loud enough. There are lots of box designs that will do much better.

Who is Al   ?

A pair of the dual Lab 12 ported cabinets are about 96 dB one watt one meter in their pass band.

The fact that four dual 12 speakers driven from two Crest CA-9 were able to put  out more level at 40 HZ and only 4 dB less at 60 HZ than 8 Meyers 650P proves they are indeed usable for main subwoofers, unless you also think the  650P are unusable.

I am not making this comparison up, I measured with music, the 650P subs were well into TPL (TruPower limiting) and Excursion limit, they were at their end stops. My subs were keeping up.

Granted, there are louder subs than the 650P, but that gig was an opportunity for me to compare my cabinets with a commercially available sub, and the results speak for themselves.

If you and Pete Koch don’t believe me, that is your prerogative.

Frankly, I would not have thought what I measured was possible had I not done extensive testing of the Lab 12 in horn loaded and various size ported cabinets prior to that gig.

Art Welter

[Art Welter]

Al Limberg wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 04:45

With the new release of the LAB15 from Eminence, compact single 15" drum subs might be pretty interesting.  Jerry McNutt has posted 4.5 and 10 cubic foot .pdf plans at the Eminence site. ?;o) Al

The Lab 15 Vd is 968 cc, two Lab 12 =1318cc Vd.
The Lab 15 takes a bigger box and more power to achieve the same output as the 12, two Lab 12 in a similar size box offer around 3dB more sensitivity and more than  6 dB more output.

For a drum sub, the much higher sensitivity in the 50HZ up range of an Eminence 4015LF would be a better choice for most drummers.

Art Welter

[Pete Koch]

No, I believe you, Art. I am sure they sound killer, for the size and output. I am not criticizing your great work!
But if they put out 4 db less at 60 hz, that is a bunch, and that is right where the dual 18's and 808's shine...and exactly what is needed for live reinforcement, IME.

I am sure your dual 12's sound better than my 808's, even with upgraded drivers and a ton of power....
I just need more output where it really counts, and would have to have four of your subs per side, instead of two, and two more amps to drive them. So 6 more items to carry and set up and plug in
I wish I lived closer, would love to hear them.
How about some pics??
Rock on,
Pete

[Art Welter]

Tony Ly wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 03:38

Duncan McLennan wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 05:28 How much and what type of power are you driving those subs with Art?  And how big are the cabinets? I might consider building one if it fits the bill. Care to post a picture? I wouldn't minding one to try for drum fill also.

Here is a picture showing the subs, they are 26.5” wide, 22.5” depth and height.
Powered by two Crest CA9.
That was the first time I had put four in one cluster, I was expecting a ton of output .
As it turned out, the power was lame, at 50 feet I was getting less output than at 125 feet with good power,  subs on either side of stage   .

Art Welter

[Pete Koch]

Now you are giving me a reason to use up some leftover Duratex, and perhaps build a dual 12 drum sub to fit under one of my monitors
Would love to pics of what you did, although dimensions can easily be altered to fit the application.
Perhaps even a smaller box, with higher tuning, as well, for more midbass above 50 hz.... hmmm