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Author Topic: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps  (Read 6697 times)

(BJ) Benjamin Fisher

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Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« on: January 23, 2010, 11:24:10 am »

Ok, first off, I am posting this solely for something to just chew on for the time being.

I know that many people on here will rag on my current setup, but to be honest, it has served me very well, with zero problems, and has fit the bill. I am running a Crown XLS 802d bridged @ 4ohm (2100w) into 2 Yamaha SW118v's. At some point, I would like to add 2 more subs. I'd like to stick with the Yamahas, as they fit my budget, most likely ONE SW218v. My question is, if I DO upgrade amps for this sub setup (2 SW118, 1 SW218), should I go for the XTI 2000, or RMX 2450. Is there going to be a big difference from the XLS? I dont currently have any DSP, but have looked into the DRPA+. Any suggestions on where I go from here

I wouldnt mind some used MTL1's, but I dont know about mixing them with the 2 SW118's. I dont want to sell my SW118s, so thats that.

Thanks in advance. Discuss....
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BJ Fisher
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Jeff Wheeler

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2010, 05:32:13 pm »

benjamin fisher wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 10:24

My question is, if I DO upgrade amps for this sub setup (2 SW118, 1 SW218), should I go for the XTI 2000, or RMX 2450.

If my math is right, you will get very little improvement if you go from the XLS bridged into 2 subs, to the same amp, or an RMX or XTi of similar output, in stereo powering four subs.

The XTi and RMX amps have basically similar output to the XLS802D.  The XTi IMO is a crappy subwoofer amp.  It runs out of gas earlier than the RMX 2450 or Behringer EP2500/EP4000 especially when the AC voltage is sagging because a lot of PA is on one craptastic bar circuit.

Quote:

I dont currently have any DSP, but have looked into the DRPA+. Any suggestions on where I go from here

I have two DRPAs and a DCX2496.  I like the DCX2496 better because its I/O is more flexible.  It does not have a wizard like the DRPA so it isn't quite as easy to use.  The Behringer is predictably less expensive as well.  What is your current crossover?  Maybe you will benefit from an upgrade, maybe not.
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Jeff Wheeler, wannabe sound guy / moonlight DJ

Pete Sams

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 12:36:31 am »

If you're looking at ML1s just replace the yamaha's with the EVs. I'd first get the crowns out of bridge mode. You're working them way too hard that a bigger amp can do in stereo more efficiently. Using bridged amps can paint yourself into a corner, then you're left with expensive upgrades and a bunch of mid-sized amps you can't do anything with. If you must bridge then use the RMX1850HD that is actually designed to run 4ohms bridged/2ohm stereo w/o issues.

Adam Schaible

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 12:44:08 am »

Pete Sams wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 23:36

If you're looking at ML1s just replace the yamaha's with the EVs. I'd first get the crowns out of bridge mode. You're working them way too hard that a bigger amp can do in stereo more efficiently. Using bridged amps can paint yourself into a corner, then you're left with expensive upgrades and a bunch of mid-sized amps you can't do anything with. If you must bridge then use the RMX1850HD that is actually designed to run 4ohms bridged/2ohm stereo w/o issues.


+1

Your amps would do better bridged.

Also, I know you said you were happy with your Yamaha's, but it might be worth considering an upgrade.

For example, the SRX 728 is quite a bit better than the SW118.  I'd guess a single 728 is comparable to 4 SW118's.  Pretty close I'd bet.

I know it's not what you wanted, but if you have the chance, listen a 728. It might be within your budget.

The price of a 728 - the sale price of your 118's is probably similar to another pair of 118's.

You'd also need less AC to power them effectively, they'd sound better, be easier to move, less pack space, and produce similar max SPL.  Not to mention, you're moving a step or two up.

Seems like a win to me, but
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(BJ) Benjamin Fisher

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 09:24:05 am »

Jeff - Ok, so are you saying the RMX is significantly better at powering subs than my current XLS?
I'm using a cheap crossover (DOD SR835). I didnt want to spend much money with the plans of going the DRPA route.


Pete - I understand what you are saying about running the XLS in bridged mode, however its only a 4ohm load. I dont see how this is hard work for this amp? A bigger amp in stereo mode just isnt in my budget, unless you have an acceptable suggestion.


Adam - My sub amp IS bridged. Misunderstanding? A big reason for me not wanting to sell the 2 SW118s is due to them being practically brand new. I'd like to continue using them for awhile. Maybe this means I should hold out on upgrading until I am ready to get rid of the SW118s, rather than adding more of them.


I appreciate everyone's input. I guess I've got some deciding before I purchase anything/more and determine what route I am going to go
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BJ Fisher
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Adam Schaible

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2010, 11:16:04 am »

Sorry, pain pills from knee surgery - not sure where I went wrong.

What I meant to say is any amp is better in stereo.

A 4 ohm bridged load is 2 ohms per channel - and while I know the amp will do it, you're kinda screwing yourself.

2100w at 4 ohms is 91 volts.  
500w at 8 ohms is  63 volts.

You can wire the cab/amp using an NL4 and run the amp in 8 ohm stereo per channel (discretely power each speaker) and lose less than 3db of max output and get a much better system overall drawing far less wall current with a much cooler amp.

Thats what I was saying about amps.

And on subs, the new peavey is similar to the 728 from reports I've heard.  I saw the cab in person and it looks pretty good.  Saw those go used for 600 in the market place.  Nothing wrong with the Yamaha's - do they still use the Eminence omega drivers?

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Joe Brugnoni

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2010, 11:39:02 am »

If your happy with the subs you have, I dont think there is any advantage to mixing it up with something different.  Why one extra sub?

Are you going to place it in the middle?  maybe you might try the two subs you have in the middle coupled up before you add one if that is what your thinking.


DRPA are great units but I would save your bucks and buy a used 260 or a new one. They can be bought for 600 new if you look.

The advantages you have with the 260 are  huge but If you have a pc you can attach it to that unit and use that for the set up and tweak of your system. I would hazard a guess that you might get all you need with this addition.

After you use the PEQ in the 260 and can see what your doing on the computer screen, I dont think you will look back.
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Jeff Wheeler

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2010, 01:15:15 pm »

Adam Schaible wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 23:44

I'd guess a single 728 is comparable to 4 SW118's.  Pretty close I'd bet.

Not like I have measurements to back it up or anything, but my opinion is based on using four SW118s in some of the rooms I am most familiar with, and now using one or two 728s in those same rooms.  I agree that one 728 is pretty close in output to four SW118s; but the 728 will be significantly less efficient at low power.  It is easier to carry a more powerful amp than twice the weight and volume of subs though.  He already owns the Yamahas though, and Benjamin can probably spend money in smarter ways than getting denser subs.

benjamin fisher wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 08:24

Jeff - Ok, so are you saying the RMX is significantly better at powering subs than my current XLS?
I'm using a cheap crossover (DOD SR835). I didnt want to spend much money with the plans of going the DRPA route.

I don't know, I have never owned an XLSd and I do not know anyone locally who is using them at 2 ohms per channel.  I don't think more power will help you without more or different subs but I could be wrong.  The two SW118s you have are probably getting all the juice they can handle right now.

I have no idea about that crossover.

benjamin fisher wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 08:24

Pete - I understand what you are saying about running the XLS in bridged mode, however its only a 4ohm load. I dont see how this is hard work for this amp? A bigger amp in stereo mode just isnt in my budget, unless you have an acceptable suggestion.

4 ohm bridge is basically the same as 2 ohm stereo.

I would be really hesitant to dump any more power into the two subs you have now.  If you buy more/better subs, you can either get a second subwoofer amp, or you can get a bigger one.  This is not an easy choice when capital is tight.

I have run two 728s off a Behringer EP-series each for quite a while and am very happy with that configuration for $2500 in subs and $550 in amps; but I hope to re-purpose or sell those two amps and buy an I-TECH 8000 within a few months.  I will be going from 70 pounds of medium-power amps to 20 pounds of higher-power amp in half the rack space for $2000 - $3000, and I will gain significant headroom.  If I re-purpose the Behringers I "lose" nothing.  If I sell them I might get $400 out of them, or basically a $75ea loss on amps that I have used for half a year.  This is the kind of thing you should scratch your head about before you decide when and what to buy.
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Jeff Wheeler, wannabe sound guy / moonlight DJ

Jeff Wheeler

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2010, 01:23:29 pm »

Oh, and honestly, unless your rig is out of gas a lot and that is what is preventing you from earning more money, I would strongly consider other upgrades first.

Do you have all the microphones you want for your gigs?  What about FX?  Compression?  EQ?  Swap that shitty MG32/14FX for a MixWiz, GL-series, LX7, or maybe an O1V?  If I was comfortable on an O1V, one of those plus an expansion card and A/D converter could replace every single piece of gear I have at FoH.  I just don't like the UI though.
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Adam Schaible

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Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2010, 01:38:50 pm »

Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 12:15

Adam Schaible wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 23:44

I'd guess a single 728 is comparable to 4 SW118's.  Pretty close I'd bet.

Not like I have measurements to back it up or anything, but my opinion is based on using four SW118s in some of the rooms I am most familiar with, and now using one or two 728s in those same rooms.  I agree that one 728 is pretty close in output to four SW118s; but the 728 will be significantly less efficient at low power.  It is easier to carry a more powerful amp than twice the weight and volume of subs though.  He already owns the Yamahas though, and Benjamin can probably spend money in smarter ways than getting denser subs.




I'm not sure how true or relevant that really is.  As far as the true part, the SW118 says 96db sensitivity - probably in half space.  4 of them is only 102db sensitivity, and the 728 is 101 in full space.  Specs can be fudged, but I wouldn't be so sure 4 SW118's are more sensitive than 1 728.

Also, your loud speakers are probably the single most important aspect of the system.  Mic's, loud speakers, and console.  Bands around here really want thick and meaty subbage, so that's what they pay for.  Upgrading the console and mic's would be good but as you've even said yourself people hear with their eyes and they would probably think more of a nice JBL sub than a mix wiz.

Hard to say without knowing all you have, but .. it's always better to have fewer more efficient cabs than more less efficient.
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