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Author Topic: the little wedge that could  (Read 26716 times)

Jack Arnott

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2010, 01:45:35 pm »

Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 12:56

Does Assistance carry the 12CN680 yet? And at what price?


Hello Tim,
Yes we do have it.
Cost is $411.00 ea.

Regards, Jack Arnott
Assistance Audio
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The Buffalo's already dead,
What was going through your head?
Why did you choose the color Re-ed?
Joss Whedon

www.assistanceaudio.com

Jack Arnott

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2010, 01:49:19 pm »

Art Welter wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 17:20

Greg Cameron wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 17:06

How do you propose dealing with covering/protecting the driver with that waveguide protruding? Seems like it sticks out quite a bit.

Greg


Makes it easier to know where to drop your beer Laughing
   



Agreed, Art!

Recently there was a person on the radio talking about mental nudges. EG, painting spiders on the back side of urinals, so that subconsciously the user will have a target.

In this case just a cone alone would have more surface area to collect the beer, but with the added benefit of the horn, I'm sure that even drunk, more beer could be "collected".

Regards, Jack
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The Buffalo's already dead,
What was going through your head?
Why did you choose the color Re-ed?
Joss Whedon

www.assistanceaudio.com

Winston Gamble

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2010, 05:06:33 pm »

We have been extremely happy with the 3 wedges I built using the original Assistance Audio 12" coaxial and Too Tall's crossovers. While you can see that not as much skill went into box design and construction in my case... Confused
I can report that everyone that stands in front of them praises their sound which supports the notion that by buying complimentary and well designed components, even a part time DIYer like me can wind up with high quality sound for a very reasonable price.
Winston
" target="_blank">http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/AssistanceCoaxMonitor.jpg

Chris Van Duker

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2010, 05:16:27 pm »

Wow, funny. I built 8 coax wedges that look almost exactly like Winston's. I used B&C 15CX40's, though.

-Chris
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2010, 06:15:04 pm »

Hi Winston-

Jack took a side trip to Wichita while crossing the USA on the Assistance Audio Roadshow, and I got to hear several products.

I liked the wedge a lot.  It had a voicing I liked, and I found it very clear without being too in-your-face.

If you get a chance, listen to Jack's other speakers.  I think you'll like them.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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Too Tall (Curtis H. List)

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2010, 07:32:02 pm »

Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 11:01

Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.



Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 11:01

Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.


When you add drivers so you have two or more woofers you have some design choices to make.
Do you want the extra driver to add SPL output with the same low end extension?
Or the same or less SPL output, but lower frequency response?

If you add a “similar” woofer you can gain as much as 6dB, as long as you do not exceed the output of the compression driver and horn.
You would cross both woofers over at the same frequency (4th order 1kHz to 2kHz)

To get more low frequency extension the woofer you’re adding will not have as high a sensitivity.
So the entire speaker goes down in sensitivity.
In this case one woofer might be crossed as low as 100Hz. Or if you use a 2nd order or 1st order as high as 500Hz. It depends where the mid woofer rolls off naturally.

Note that the actual solution might be much more complicated. These are just some examples in principle.

In other words louder or lower, but not both.

You can get more low end out of paralleled woofer pair (both at 1kHz) just because each driver is seeing half the load. You might be able to EQ in some lows, but you must know and respect where the box is tuned if it happens to be ported. Keep the EQ above the tuning.

The 12680 box is tuned very low for that driver and how small the box volume is.

If you blow into a vocal mic the driver will not jump. I tried this with a SM58 and a Audix OM-7vocal mic.

But when I switched to a wide band condenser that goes below 30Hz (AT-813) when I blew into the mic the driver jumped like you expect.
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Too Tall
        Curtis H. List    
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Independent Live Sound Engineer (and I'm Tall Too!)

Winston Gamble

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2010, 07:36:08 pm »

Tim McCulloch wrote on Mon, 25 January 2010 23:15

Hi Winston-

Jack took a side trip to Wichita while crossing the USA on the Assistance Audio Roadshow, and I got to hear several products.

I liked the wedge a lot.  It had a voicing I liked, and I found it very clear without being too in-your-face.

If you get a chance, listen to Jack's other speakers.  I think you'll like them.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

I get to hear them somewhat regularly since we are both in SLC. Sometimes I'm just listening and sometimes mixing and listening.

Winston

Too Tall (Curtis H. List)

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2010, 08:29:53 pm »

Weogo Reed wrote on Thu, 14 January 2010 20:31

Hi Y'all,

For almost a year now I've been using a wedge with a 15" BMS 15C682 coax imported by Jack Arnott at Assistance Audio.
The box is from Assistance Audio's Live Sound Division, and only the components are available for purchase, not the boxes.

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_coaxials.html

It has an excellent, low-loss, passive crossover designed by Curtis List "Too Tall".  
The crossover design comes with the coax, or Curtis can build crossovers for you.

The complete wedge weighs about 35#.  The 15" neo coax is about 11.5#, and the crossover is over 7#.
The box has a dual-angle design with 35 and 55 degree tilt angles.
The foam-backed stainless steel grill is a nice touch.

This wedge is a monster.
It goes quite loud on modest power.(Am regularly using a QSC CX404 for four monitor mixes, 250 watts/channel.)
I can put this wedge in front of deaf Louisiana Accordion players, bring it up and have them smile.
A local Mandolin player who is hard of hearing loves this box.  He plays with a pickup and a mic, and I can get lots of pickup AND mic in the wedge.
This wedge requires very little, if any EQ.

Coverage is fairly tight, but the 'sweet spot' of best sound isn't a tight bullet.
The wedge will cover two musicians who are close together.

The box is smaller, and much lighter, than some 12" wedges I have used.
Being passively crossed and only needing one amp channel also contributes to the lightweight theme.

For those looking for a high-clarity, high-output box in a compact, lightweight package, I suggest you consider this.


Continuing the BMS theme, I will soon have a pair of boxes with the 12" BMS 12CN680 coax from Jack Arnott,
with
crossovers designed by Curtis List,
and
boxes by John Halliburton.    j_challiburton@sbcglobal.net    cell:  847-971-0462
John's main objective is to help develop cabinet designs, prototype them, and then
offer production at a fully outfitted CNC shop he has been working with: WW Displays:  
http://www.ww-speakercabinets.com/

I'll report on these boxes after using them for a while.

 http://bmsspeakers.com/cone-speaker-compression-driver/bms-c  oaxial-transducers/bms-coaxial-neodymium-transducer/bms-12cn 680-coaxial-transducer/12cn680-coaxial-transducer-intro/


Thanks to Jack Arnott, Curtis List and John Halliburton for their commitment to high quality audio!

Good health,  Weogo Reed



Here are the polars for the two speakers.

index.php/fa/27629/0/


The top is the 15C680 with a 60 degree conical horn.
The xover point is 1400Hz. You can see a flare from 1500Hz to 2400Hz where it goes from about 60 degrees to 120 degrees.
A good guess is the horn can no longer support it.

I could have made the xover point higher, but I like it as low as possible since the BMS compression driver sounds better then any cone woofer.

The bottom is the 12CN680 that Weogo just received for beta testing.

The specs are a 80 and 60 degree.
The polar above is for the horizontal 80 degree. My polar says -6dB at about 70 degrees.
It is very consistent from 1800Hz to 12.5kHz.
The "flare" is very narrow and not a great increase of dispersion.

I admit to spending more time on the xover to make that flare as small as possible.
The xover point ended up at 1400Hz with fewer parts then typical.
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Too Tall
        Curtis H. List    
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Independent Live Sound Engineer (and I'm Tall Too!)

Art Welter

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2010, 08:55:55 pm »

Too Tall,

Interesting charts!

Could you post charts for frequency response and phase for the two coax monitors?

Art Welter
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Guy Johnson

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Re: the little wedge that could
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2010, 09:39:25 am »

Interesting about all these BMS comments — my 12" wedges use OEM BMS concentric drivers, and I love'em to bits. They go from subtle, to very loud and clean. Surprising amount of bottom-end. I know of some that regularly get abused and they're still fine after a couple of years. I'd love to hear some of the new ones!
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