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Author Topic: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?  (Read 11091 times)

Brian Wynn

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Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« on: March 07, 2011, 09:46:00 pm »

I just bought a VT4887A rig and  at this point I did not buy the Array Frames yet.  Because there is some things I dont like about them.
Has anyone modified these frames or made them from scratch?  If so please post examples. 
I want to fly them from Sumner Eventer lifts from the front.  I do not want to turn the lift sideways.

Hey I already know about the liability issues involved so keep that to yourself please.

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2011, 10:52:22 pm »

I just bought a VT4887A rig and  at this point I did not buy the Array Frames yet.  Because there is some things I dont like about them.
Has anyone modified these frames or made them from scratch?  If so please post examples. 
I want to fly them from Sumner Eventer lifts from the front.  I do not want to turn the lift sideways.

Hey I already know about the liability issues involved so keep that to yourself please.

I wouldn't modify any piece of flying hardware.  We routinely fly our 4887 from Genie Super Towers.  I believe I posted pics in the FUDforums at one time... but I've used 2 methods.  One is an aluminum box beam across the forks, U-bolted to the forks.  A single forged eye bolt is in the center, and you can use a pair of shackles (or more) to get the clearance you need between the array frame and the lift forks.

The other method uses a 6' Steelflex sling, flat across the top of the forks, then choking each fork, coming together underneath with a  shackle (think 'triangle').  A shorter polyester sling is used to choke off the Steelflex and wrap around the fork assembly where it attaches to the lift carrier... it keeps the main sling from 'walking' down the forks (probably wouldn't happen, but why take a chance?)  This has the disadvantage of the main sling pulling the forks together.

You could also secure a short section of 12x12 truss on the forks and hang PA from it and put some LED fixtures on top of the truss.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Steve Ferreira

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2011, 09:19:45 am »

I just bought a VT4887A rig and  at this point I did not buy the Array Frames yet.  Because there is some things I dont like about them.
Has anyone modified these frames or made them from scratch?  If so please post examples. 
I want to fly them from Sumner Eventer lifts from the front.  I do not want to turn the lift sideways.

Hey I already know about the liability issues involved so keep that to yourself please.

What don't you like about the frames? It's designed with safety factors and it works.
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Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 10:48:41 am »

The hang point is in the center of the frame along the same plane as the forks.  It would work better if it had two hang point bars that ran inline with the forks.  Or if the hang point bar was perpendicular to the fork of the lift so they intersected at some point.  So that you would flying them much easier. 

And the frame is too deep it hit's the mast of the lift and put's your center of gravity out past the "safety zone" of the lift fork.  Although I believe that if I turn the frame around so that the excess hang's off of the front that would solve this issue. That also means that I can't transport the frame attached to the speakers.  Because I will transport them five high on a custom made cart with a slide over cover.  Hence the cover will not fit unless its modified.

I thing I might have a pair of hang point bars made identical to the factory one that is down the middle of the frame and have those welded to the factory frame into place so that they line up with the fork tubes on the lift.

Here is a example.


By the way this forum layout sucks!!!  I cant figure out how to replay to a post without a quote being attached.  And the when I type I cant see what Im typing.  And no spell check in ton the forum.  THAT SUCKS.  Because I cant spell for crap!!!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 10:58:51 am by Brian Wynn »
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Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 10:53:21 am »

This is my EV setup and it works so well form my application.  I think I might just copy it for the JBL system.

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 07:41:37 pm »

This is my EV setup and it works so well form my application.  I think I might just copy it for the JBL system.

The automatic quoting is so we can figure out who folks are replying to, since the great minds at EH Publishing deemed this forum software to be "What You Need."  (cue the Bernard Hermann music)

There are "short" array frames for all models of VerTec; so short they are scarcely deeper that the box that hangs under them.  The caveat is that VerTec subs tend to be deeper than top boxes, which may have implications in the future.

We bought short frames for our 87s, and both regular and short frames for our 89s.  Mostly we use the regular frames when we do a "reverse frame hang" to get more upward tilt to the array.

Using the fork hangers you currently own, I'd hang the beam/square tube I mentioned in my first post.  Find a local engineer to draw it up and put his stamp on it.  I'll try to get some pics of the SteelFlex method this weekend.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

ps. Do not modify the JBL array frames. Period.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 09:20:02 pm »

The automatic quoting is so we can figure out who folks are replying to, since the great minds at EH Publishing deemed this forum software to be "What You Need."  (cue the Bernard Hermann music)

There are "short" array frames for all models of VerTec; so short they are scarcely deeper that the box that hangs under them.  The caveat is that VerTec subs tend to be deeper than top boxes, which may have implications in the future.

We bought short frames for our 87s, and both regular and short frames for our 89s.  Mostly we use the regular frames when we do a "reverse frame hang" to get more upward tilt to the array.

Using the fork hangers you currently own, I'd hang the beam/square tube I mentioned in my first post.  Find a local engineer to draw it up and put his stamp on it.  I'll try to get some pics of the SteelFlex method this weekend.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

ps. Do not modify the JBL array frames. Period.


Sound Good Thankx Tim
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 07:09:10 pm »

If you really don't want the message quoted, you can delete the text when the post reply window opens
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 08:38:34 pm »

If you really don't want the message quoted, you can delete the text when the post reply window opens

But by doing that you will remove any reference to what you are responding to. There is a reason the quote is there. If you don't care enough to leave a reference to what you are talking about, why should anyone else care to answer you?

Mac
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 09:02:47 pm »

But by doing that you will remove any reference to what you are responding to. There is a reason the quote is there. If you don't care enough to leave a reference to what you are talking about, why should anyone else care to answer you?

Mac

Sometimes one is responding to the thread in general and not a specific post.   
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Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 10:07:35 pm »

Sometimes one is responding to the thread in general and not a specific post.

+1 Maybe Im posting to the thread and not the person. 

And thank you Steve I have been deleting the quoted text. 

Its just another reason why I think the old forum was better.  But I better not say to much or I might get banned for life just like some I my other friends did. 

Since we are on the subject did anyone else notice the activity on the new forum is greatly decreased compared to the old forum?  Im just saying.
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2011, 12:14:52 am »

+1 Maybe Im posting to the thread and not the person. 

And thank you Steve I have been deleting the quoted text. 

Its just another reason why I think the old forum was better.  But I better not say to much or I might get banned for life just like some I my other friends did. 

Since we are on the subject did anyone else notice the activity on the new forum is greatly decreased compared to the old forum?  Im just saying.


Sound men get cranky.   Some times for good reason, sometimes not.  Seen plenty of both lately on both forums.

Hopefully people will post where they want to and won't hassle me if I post on all of them.
I've got a lot to learn still and need as much help as I can get!
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2011, 12:16:11 am »

Can I see a pic or link of the array frame you don't like so I can understand why you don't like it?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 04:54:45 pm »

Can I see a pic or link of the array frame you don't like so I can understand why you don't like it?

The SketchUp drawing pretty well defines his problem.  The suspension points of VerTec array frames are in the middle beam of the frame, not on the sides where his lift forks are.

He needs to find a way to transfer the load from the center to the outsides.

And I'll repeat my warning to NOT alter any manufacturer's suspension components because they are inconvenient or incompatible with ones current way of doing things.  Rigging failures will result in property damage and human injuries and/or death.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Steve Hurt

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2011, 05:31:08 pm »

I never suggested anyone modify the frame, just trying to collect information.

Bryan, can the short frame ( VT4887-SF ) do what you need?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2011, 05:58:45 pm »

I never suggested anyone modify the frame, just trying to collect information.

Bryan, can the short frame ( VT4887-SF ) do what you need?
I didn't say you did... but with the question up-thread about modifying the array frame I thought I bore repeating.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 10:49:44 am »

I never suggested anyone modify the frame, just trying to collect information.

Bryan, can the short frame ( VT4887-SF ) do what you need?


Steve, if I offended you I didnít mean to.  Iím already looking at the short frame. 

Problem solved everyone.  I have decided to have a sheet metal shop build me 2 new frames from scratch.  They will be load tested and engineer certified.  And still cost half as much as the JBL frame.  Iím sure the JBL frame is perfect in its own right but it just doesn't work in my application.  Besides the alternatives to using the JBL frame with Genie lifts has a much greater safety risk than building my own.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 10:57:17 am »


Steve, if I offended you I didnít mean to.  Iím already looking at the short frame. 

Problem solved everyone.  I have decided to have a sheet metal shop build me 2 new frames from scratch.  They will be load tested and engineer certified.  And still cost half as much as the JBL frame.  Iím sure the JBL frame is perfect in its own right but it just doesn't work in my application.  Besides the alternatives to using the JBL frame with Genie lifts has a much greater safety risk than building my own.

They're still half the price after you build a couple and destructively test them?

The issue isn't the array frame, the issue is the lack of a convenient way of hanging the array frame from the lift forks.  There are several safe ways to do this that do not involve building your own array frame.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2011, 11:06:52 am »

They're still half the price after you build a couple and destructively test them?

The issue isn't the array frame, the issue is the lack of a convenient way of hanging the array frame from the lift forks.  There are several safe ways to do this that do not involve building your own array frame.

Well thats why I posted here.  Then Explain the ways to do it.
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Brian Wynn

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2011, 11:18:04 am »

By the way.
Turning the lift's sideways is not safe.
Single point hang is not safe and evolves tie lines.

Ron Corniels has a safe way of using the factory frames but itís just too bulky for me.  The parts he used were made by the Light Source and they had to be manufactured by someone other than JBL "so that must not be safe".

Yes I can have 3 built and 1 of them tested for less than 1 of the JBL frames.  We are talking about $50.00 in steel per frame plus labor of course.

By the way I am in no way recommending to anyone to not use the JBL frames.  Iím just simply explaining that I can't use them for my application and was wondering if anyone had any alternatives.
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2011, 11:24:22 am »


Steve, if I offended you I didnít mean to.  Iím already looking at the short frame. 

Problem solved everyone.  I have decided to have a sheet metal shop build me 2 new frames from scratch.  They will be load tested and engineer certified.  And still cost half as much as the JBL frame.  Iím sure the JBL frame is perfect in its own right but it just doesn't work in my application.  Besides the alternatives to using the JBL frame with Genie lifts has a much greater safety risk than building my own.

You didn't offend me at all Brian.   
My "sound guys are cranky " comment was just a general comment about the LAB / SFN rukus.
A lot of silly stuff coming from both sides (just like most arguments)

Please post pics of what you end up with.  I am very interested in this. 
I'm not flying anything at this stage, but may get there one day. 
Trying to absorb as much info as possible before that day arrives.
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Re: Vertec 4887A Array Frame's Custom?
¬ę Reply #20 on: March 14, 2011, 11:24:22 am ¬Ľ


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