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Author Topic: This is fun situation to find yourself in  (Read 5160 times)

alex thompson

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This is fun situation to find yourself in
« on: October 07, 2009, 12:28:39 PM »

I was hired by a local church to install a sound system for their sanctuary addition (30'w x 45'd x 19'h) which will make one really long room when opened up to the old sanctuary.

I'm recommending using Community i15xx series one per side (church wanted stereo, I wanted center cluster as the ceiling was high enough) and using the existing 2 speakers, but relocated, to cover the old sanctuary.

The fun part is they have this acoustic consultant (who specializes in home A/V rooms) who wants to put in a 70v system with 6 speakers for each the old and new section powered by only 36 watts total for each room.  Speakers are to be hung in two rows of 6 14.5' above the floor (blocking line of sight for a video projector which will likely be added in the near future)

Actual quote from their proposal in attempt to discredit my design: "The Community speakers have an adjustable horn driver with a dispersion pattern of 90 x 60 degrees (-6dB). The speakers we are suggesting offer more than twice that."

So they have a speaker that covers 180x120 degrees?  Why is that better? To throw more sound at the ceiling and walls?  They also listed cost as a consideration, since the Community cost about $1300 and their recommended speaker cost $300 - $400 (total $3600-$4800 + extra wiring and rigging.  Am I missing something here?)

I was very curious that they did not supply any mfg. model # information or any specifications about the recommended products.

That's enough ranting.  There is a meeting tonight. Any suggestions?


A

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Alex Thompson
Central Ohio Sound
http://www.centralohiosound.com

Chris Boschen Leonard

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 01:39:33 PM »

The only way a 70V distributed system would have any chance of functioning in this setting is if it is used solely for spoken word. Then it might work, so long as they are happy with the vocals sounding like the paging intercom of a grocery store. You can forget about any musical programme.

With only a rough concept of the room in question, I would say your center hung concept was the superior design. For general purpose vocal and music reinforcement, pair of good Community boxes will trump ANY commercial 70v 6 speaker array, hands down.

If there's serious money on the line, I'd suggest you bring in a local authority, whose expertise will not be in question. They will make short work of any wannabe designs. Another option is simply to crunch the numbers yourself, and then show the client on paper why a 70V system is poor design. Explain that it is impossible to even present a 'design' without listing the model and specs of the speakers in question, so that issues like output and coverage can be discussed in an objective fashion.

You could also do a direct demo: bring in a pair of good 70V speakers, and run them on the 36W the other designer thinks is adequate. Put a single decent pro cabinet up against that, and let the clients hear the difference. Then they might actually understand what they would be paying for in a set of real speakers, instead of some BG crap.
 

P.S. - I want a speaker with 180 X 120 dispersion!        
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Chris Leonard
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Boschen Technologies
www.boschen.org

alex thompson

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 02:30:55 PM »

Chris Boschen Leonard wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 12:39


You could also do a direct demo: bring in a pair of good 70V speakers, and run them on the 36W the other designer thinks is adequate. Put a single decent pro cabinet up against that, and let the clients hear the difference. Then they might actually understand what they would be paying for in a set of real speakers, instead of some BG crap.  


That sounds like it would be too much fun. I'll suggest a demo to them. I'm sure if the meeting tonight doesn't persuade them a demo will.


A


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Alex Thompson
Central Ohio Sound
http://www.centralohiosound.com

Tim Padrick

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 02:55:32 AM »

alex thompson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:28


Actual quote from their proposal in attempt to discredit my design: "The Community speakers have an adjustable horn driver with a dispersion pattern of 90 x 60 degrees (-6dB). The speakers we are suggesting offer more than twice that."
A




Add to the above something like:

The increased dispersion of our loudspeakers will maximize the amount of sound that is projected to the room walls, enhancing echo and reverberation and thus guaranteeing minimal intelligibility.  The arrangement of the loudspeakers will insure that each listener will hear each reproduced sound multiple times, further minimizing the already poor level of intelligibility.   Additionally, the ability of our loudspeakers to project sound to every inch of the sanctuary will insure that the use of microphones will be enhanced with unbelievable levels of feedback, thus maximizing the uselessness of such devices.

Adam Kane

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 07:29:05 AM »

How did the meeting go?
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alex thompson

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2009, 09:44:55 AM »

Meeting went pretty well, all the points brought up by others in this thread were made.  They voted with me there, which was a little awkward, and the majority wanted to go with my design, especially the decorating committee who didn't want a forest of speakers hanging from the ceiling.

Haven't heard a final decision yet though. They decided to postpone decision making to get more information from the acoustics consultant.  While I wait insulation is going in and drywall being hung.

A local pipe organ builder was at the meeting and based on churches he works in he seemed to think the forest of speakers hung directly overhead aiming down would be better for speech and my design would be better for music.  Another guy there is good friends with the acoustics consultant so I suspect his design will win in the end.

If they choose the wrong design I have the contract to install it anyway so I'll actually make more money due to increased cost and complexity + extra time to try to make the best out of it.  Whether it is more or less profit in the end, I'd rather not be associated with the install of a badly designed system and just want to be able to do what is best for the church.

A

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Alex Thompson
Central Ohio Sound
http://www.centralohiosound.com

Adam Kane

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2009, 12:44:30 PM »

Even though it's hard to walk away from the almighty dollar, I'd have a really tough time putting my name on something I knew wasn't going to work right and in all probability result in a bunch of awkward service calls.

If I were in your shoes and ended up having to install per that guy's design, I'd find some way to get out of it if you can.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2009, 02:23:16 PM »

It's called work... The customer is always right, even when they're wrong, which is pretty common.

JR
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Adam Kane

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2009, 04:37:59 PM »

I'm not opposed to hard work.  And I fully understand the "customer is always right."

What I have a problem with is putting my name on something I know isn't going to work.  Even if the customer knows it's going to be bad, I still wouldn't do it.  Odds are, someone will see that train wreak of a system, ask who put it in, to which the reply comes, "XXX sound."  

Now that person may go to his church/school/theater/whatever and tell the powers-that-be that he got to see a "XXX" install and it was horrible...all the while not knowing the entire story.  It's something that XXX Sound has no control over and may never get another chance with that client, much less any of their acquaintances.

It may be different elsewhere or for larger contractors, but in my neck of the woods, we rely very heavily on word-of-mouth for the majority of our business.  Nearly every new client got our contact info from a previous install, festival, etc.  Word seems to travel quickly around here and if we screw it up, we take a hit for future business.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 06:06:57 PM »

Adam Kane wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 15:37

I'm not opposed to hard work.  And I fully understand the "customer is always right."

What I have a problem with is putting my name on something I know isn't going to work.  Even if the customer knows it's going to be bad, I still wouldn't do it.  Odds are, someone will see that train wreak of a system, ask who put it in, to which the reply comes, "XXX sound."  

Now that person may go to his church/school/theater/whatever and tell the powers-that-be that he got to see a "XXX" install and it was horrible...all the while not knowing the entire story.  It's something that XXX Sound has no control over and may never get another chance with that client, much less any of their acquaintances.

It may be different elsewhere or for larger contractors, but in my neck of the woods, we rely very heavily on word-of-mouth for the majority of our business.  Nearly every new client got our contact info from a previous install, festival, etc.  Word seems to travel quickly around here and if we screw it up, we take a hit for future business.


If you "know" it isn't going to work you are wasting your time and your customer's money. If the customer knows it's going to be "bad" and still wants it, that is probably not the best customer to work for...

If your "brand" is inextricably linked to the job, and your brand will lose more value than you gain from doing the job, the math is pretty simple.

The luxury of being able to ignore what customers want is not enjoyed by many in competitive markets.

When we are doing everything right our customers want what we're peddling. If not, one of us is wrong.

JR

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Robert Sims

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2009, 10:41:22 PM »


If the customer is not smart enough to go to previous installs of either companies, I'd do the install the 1st, 2nd and 3rd time. The designer has the burden of system performance if everything is installed to their specifications. It's not unethical but I understand that it's hard and have concern for the victim, but it sounds like you have tried to make your case. Refusing to do the work only takes you out of the picture when it's time to correct the problems.

In today's market why walk if there is a profit to be made.
Breaking even isn't a bad option right now if the plan is to keep people employed.


Good Luck...
Let us know how it turns out...  
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Robert Sims

Brad Weber

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Re: This is fun situation to find yourself in
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 12:54:12 AM »

Robert Sims wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 22:41


The designer has the burden of system performance if everything is installed to their specifications.

Technically and contractually true, but not necessarily valid from a long term reputation perspective and it can be two-sided.  The only name associated with a project a year or two down the road is often the name someone sees on the racks and As-Builts, that of the installer.  That is true whether the result is hugely successful or less than desired, no one may remember anything about there being a Consultant and assign all credit or blame solely to the name they see on the racks and documents.  I had one past Client give an employer a bad reference based on his associating them with anything in one building even though the work that he had a problem with had not been theirs.  I also had a church threaten to blackball me with everyone they could for what turned out to be modifications made to the system by others that I knew nothing about, they left no record but our name was on everything so it must be our fault.  So you are technically and contractually correct, but that may not matter in the longer term practical view.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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