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[Yosi Toronto]

Hi All,

I'm a new member to this board.   I use to be a computer engineer, but decided to do a 180 and open a upscale lounge/bar in Toronto, Canada.   I'm a bit of a newbie audiophile, owned a lot of home gear.. an fell in love with the bright sound of Klipsch for my home listening setups.  

Moving forward a few years, I still love my home Klipsch speakers.  now I'm about to be the owner of a new small upscale lounge bar.  

The lounge is about 1700 sq feet.  not too large or too small..  but it about a perfect square in dimensions.   I don't want blasting music, but rather decent listening music, so ppl can still talk and hear themselves.   Rarely any dancing will take place... mostly a mingle spot, but on occasion some lound music...  and I'd like to crank it up a bit.   No live music, just WinAmp or CD.  So to keep things simple... please advise me on the PROs/CONs of the two options I was thinking of:

Option 1)  

4 x Yamaha C112, in the corners of the lounge
1 x Behringer amplifier
1 x DriveRack PA (for auto equalization - my ear sucks when it come to equalize, maybe crossover to the sub, if i use one)
Optional: 1 x Yamaha Subwoofer S118 (I think this is the matching sub)

or

Option 2)

4 x Klipsch Bookshelf RB-81, in the corners of the lounge
1 x Behringer amplifier
1 x DriveRack PA (for auto equalization - my ear sucks when it come to equalize, maybe crossover to the sub, if i use one)Optional: 1 x Klipsch Subwoofer - Note: the RB-81 seems to go down to 46hz, instead of the Yamaha that only goes to 60hz, so a sub may not be needed??

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rb-81-specifications/


Which of the two setups will give me more accurate sound??  They both seem to have the wattage I'm looking for...   both about the same pricepoint...   Is the cheap pro gear (Yamaha - yet great reviews on this Club series) going to sound as good as the Klipsch home gear?    both are easily mountable, so thats not an issue..  

The Klipsch sounds fantastic in my room that is almost 800sq feet with two of these speaker, I'm assuming 4 of these in a room 1700sq feet would be fine.

What are you honest thought so sound accuracy for this price point between the two options?  home vs pro?

Much appreciated!
Yosi

[Stephen Payne]

If the room is only aprox 50x50 then I doubt you will need 4 speakers (which may do more harm than good). I like the Klipsch idea but connecting them to a Behringer amp just seems crazy. I've been in plenty of small coffee bar type places where they actually used home systems and they worked great. You might want to look at EV speakers also. They sound very "Hi-Fi" to me.

[Bill Mynatt]

An audiophile that's into behringer?  They must have began using some super flux capacitors with phase linear cryogenically sealed inductance cores to keep the signal pure.

Yosi, if you like the Klipsch, stick with it.  Go listen to the systems and pick what you like.  You may not need all the functionality of the DRPA for what you're doing.  

[Whit Hutchinson]

I agree that if the music should not be at disco or live band levels a 2-4 HI-FI speakers (like the Klipsch you listed or I am a huge fan of the JBL northridge N26 for stuff like this ) should work great.  You should be able to get by with a basic stereo tuner/reciever as well (no need for a bunch of surround sound, dsp, etc).   If you can even find one anymore that's just a decent powered stereo receiver anymore.  Just look for one that's 100w or so per channel.

If you want it a bit louder and want it to be a little more "pro" why not look at this setup:

-Simple Numark 3 Channel DJ mixer.  (this will give you inputs for your CD player and computer and one other accessory if needed (perhaps TV audio?).

-Something like a QSC RMX 850

-Small format "PA" speakers (something like Electrovoice EVID line maybe with one of their powered subs tucked into a corner).


As far as putting the speakers in the 4 corners, I am not a fan of that.  Can we get a drawing of your setup?

[Yosi Toronto]

Thanks for the input... What would give me a more accurate sound? The Klipsch or the Yamaha S112?

[john sanders]

I think you'll get a better, more accurate sound with the Klipsch. The few times I've listened to Yamaha speakers I wasn't impressed.

[Brandon Wahl]

Yosi Toronto wrote on Tue, 29 September 2009 13:15

Thanks for the input... What would give me a more accurate sound? The Klipsch or the Yamaha S112?

Putting something up to help breakup the acoustic problems of a square room will make more of a difference than what speaker gives more accurate sound. Also the auto eq on the driverack is not foolproof or easy to do well. I would not suggest it for your application exp without professional help setting it up.

If your going to do it yourself I suggest sticking with what you know. The Klipsch speakers should be fine for that small of a room and you can add a sub later if you need it. You could probably find a cheap home stereo receiver, best not in surround, for cheap on craigslist.

That will allow for easy input routing and still sound decent. If you need to most home audio receivers have an output so you can link 2 for extra power for the 4 speakers. If the one can't handle 4 outputs.

[Bennett Prescott]

Yosi Toronto wrote on Tue, 29 September 2009 14:15

Thanks for the input... What would give me a more accurate sound? The Klipsch or the Yamaha S112?

That's like asking which will get you to Alberta faster, a Ford Pinto or a Chevy Cavalier? Neither of them is a quality automobile.

Good sounding speakers that can reproduce high SPLs (and you don't need a lot, but you may well be beyond the capabilities of normal "home" systems) are expensive, especially if they need to be small. Perhaps look into the JBL Control line?

[Dick Rees]

Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 29 September 2009 15:36

Yosi Toronto wrote on Tue, 29 September 2009 14:15 Thanks for the input... What would give me a more accurate sound? The Klipsch or the Yamaha S112? That's like asking which will get you to Alberta faster, a Ford Pinto or a Chevy Cavalier? Neither of them is a quality automobile.

Yes, but Chevy sounds sexier than Ford.  Try it:


Chevy

Chevy

Chevy

Ford

See what I mean?

   

[Doug Maye]

Klipsch.....if you use a set of their LaScala's. Those things were desgned back in the 60's and are all horn loaded. Efficient as all hell and can handle a medium sized room. They make them in a home and commercial version. If I remember the home version is rated to 100 watts and the commercial is rated to 200. I think that the box is rated at 105 db @1watt/1 meter. They also make them where the "squaker" (as they call the tweeter) and the midrange horn are in one box and the woofer is in a seperate box. Much easier to fly than the one piece, but they are quite big and heavy. They how up on ebay all the time reasonably priced. If you like the "in your face" sound, they would work. A QSC RMX 850 is ample power and cheap.

[Yosi Toronto]

As much as I love Klipsch and I highly respect all of your comment, and appreciate them..   I spoke to a few various sound contractors and they keep on pushing me into the the Yamaha Club series or jbl jrx series(junk) and Crow amp setup...

One contractor said the heat from running the klipsch bookshelf continuously will fry the diaphragm of the woofer?

Who would make a speaker that can't run for a few hours continuously?   his argument was its a home speaker and for the same $400/speaker I'm better off withe a "pro" speaker like the yamaha or jbl..  is there any truth to this or is he just trying to push his "pro" product like the other contractors are too?

Thank again...

[Yosi Toronto]

The room is 45' by 40'

almost a perfect square. only thing ogin in the space is a bar and some funky seating...

floors are wood, wall are concrete..

[Michael DiCosimo]

I'm not a pro like these guys, so my perspective comes from "the outside."

You said this would be mostly for "background music" so I'm basing my reply on that.

50' square is a decent sized room.  With 4 speakers in the corners, music low enough in volume to talk over near the speakers, won't be heard at all towards the center of the room.

What's the ceiling like in this room?  Is it a drop ceiling?  High, "club type" ceiling painted black with the AC vents/wires running up there?  Possibly you could look at a 70v distributed installation with lots of smaller speakers and zones that you could turn up/down as you need to.  Very similar to what you see/hear in a department store.

Being that you're not going to have live music (are you sure...never?) you won't need a mixer/signal processing.

You COULD "get away with" a HT receiver and 4 speakers...cheap and easy.  But you would encounter the problem I listed above.  I think a distributed system with zones is your best bet.

This is an interesting topic; I look forward to reading everyone's suggestions.

Good luck, Yosi!

[Whit Hutchinson]

Yoshi,

Those Yamahas or JBL JRX will never "sound as good" as the hi-fi boxes you suggested.   What they will do is get much louder than the hi-fi boxes.   The advantage would go to the PA type speakers once you started having ANY type of live music even at very low volume.  This is where the line for me is drawn for small martini clubs.  I have seen many nice sounding systems (Tannoy and JBL control) that sound great for music playback but simply can not handle what is required once there is something as simple as a acoustic guitar and a microphone for singing involved.  However, I am a fan of using good sounding HiFi boxes vs. "PA" boxes in small settings where volume is not much of an issue.  They just sound better, cleaner, fuller,...etc..etc.  Again, they only work well if you don't expect 110DB disco or live music levels.

The "problem" with the Yamahas, JBL JRX, Peavey PR..etc.etc will be that they have less bass than then Klipsch you are looking at and will absolutely require a sub to sound acceptable for an intimate lower volume setting.  

This is why I suggested something like the EVID from electrovoice.  They are basically a higher output "hi-fi" type design that will stand up to being pushed a little bit.   However, you will still need to use a sub of some type to make it sound "good" especially at lower volumes.

[Yosi Toronto]

I partially see what you are saying.....

I just don't understand the technical side of it...  if the freq. response is the same Klipsch - Yamaha Club Series, shouldn't the "Pro" box sound as clear as the HiFi box?

Also it seems common for the PRO speaker to finish off at 16khz instead of 20khz?  any reason why?

Any finally the sound contractors are saying in a lounge/bar environment: "I shouldn't be aiming for a flat output, they said the horns may be too bright... they always go heavey on the bass and mid's"  - is this true? and if so why?

Thanks,
Yosi

[Whit Hutchinson]

Yosi,

PA speakers in that size/price range are geared to be loud and efficient under a much narrower bandwidth than the hi-fi speakers you are looking at.  

For instance:  The Yamahas may play at 113 DB with 100 watts of input power between 70-16khz.  (just an estimate).   Whereas the hi-fi speaker may produce 95 DB of output with the same 100 watts of input power but would sound much more balanced and may be able to produce this output 50hz - 18-20khz (again just an example).    

Not to mention the sound quality will most likely be superior to the PA speaker.  The bad part?-  They will not play nearly as loud.  This is the comprise between PA speakers and near field full range speakers (hi-fi).

The reason the PA speakers dont go as low or as high in frequency is because they are made to be as efficient as possible to play loudly (compression horn with a big compression driver that does not play as high as a nice silk dome tweeter for instance).  They do not play low in frequency because 1. The woofer does not have lot of travel,  2.  The cabinet is tuned for low-mid range, 3. The woofer is built to be very efficient at producing mid-low/mid frequencies.  This is why it is necessary to have a sub woofer for these types of speakers.  Again, if listening at low volume with PA type speakers, they can sound pretty good/acceptable but usually lack any low end.  A sub woofer playing quietly along with them to fill in anything below 50-60hz makes them sound similar to the HIFI system response you would have in your living room.  

If you are worried about it sounding good and getting loud enough take a look at what type of setup I would recommend for your application (without being able to see it of course.

2-4 of these along whichever wall(s) aimed at your listeng area, not necessarily in the corners.  Look at the V6 or V8 from this link:   http://www.tannoy.com/ProSummary.aspx#&&/wEXAgUEU1NJ ZAUCMTAFAVQFAU2jTXPd80R8zEj+RqiZao7UD8pzjg==

1 of these in one of your corners. Look at either the PowerVS subs here.   http://www.tannoy.com/ProSummary.aspx#&&/wEXAgUEU1NJ ZAUCMTYFAVQFAU2TEz0XoK2i1KPL292j9NKFqCaEQw==

You would need 1 amplifier (again something like an RMX 850 would work grea).  1 mixer of some sort to handle the various inputs you may have (CD, TV audio, Computer, etc) and possibly an EQ if the mixer did not offer the sound you were looking for.

These are not cheap speakers but would be what I would opt for if I needed high sound quality and the ability to get somewhat loud for music playback.  

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Out of curiosity, is your last name really "Toronto"?  Mr. Toronto from Toronto?  If so, that's quite a coincidence.  If not, forum rules require a real last name.

[Randy Pence]

Regardless what you decide on (if playing low volumes, i support the suggestion of stuff like the tannoy or evid tops with accompanying sub, community makes applicable products, too), you want to do something with the walls to improve room acoustics.  Wrapping mineral wool/fiberglass (like rockwool or owens corning 703) with fire resistant fabric and attaching to the walls will dramatically improve the sound..

[Gerry Seymour]

Randy Pence wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 17:56

Regardless what you decide on (if playing low volumes, i support the suggestion of stuff like the tannoy or evid tops with accompanying sub, community makes applicable products, too), you want to do something with the walls to improve room acoustics.  Wrapping mineral wool/fiberglass (like rockwool or owens corning 703) with fire resistant fabric and attaching to the walls will dramatically improve the sound..

This taps into an area I'm curious about. How much of such would be needed to improve the acoustics in a room of this type? And is this type of improvement universal, regardless of what type of sound is being dealt with? I'm working on some ideas for a new space a friend is buying - will likely be some spoken-word and some music. Fidelity of the music won't be as high a priority as for the spoken word, but I'd like to get the sound as good as possible for him.