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[klaus hübner]

Simon Ryder wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 22:04

Hi Mike, The simple reason may be better crew. J series is an extremely phase coherent system as is every other D&B system. Phase coherence is one of their big 'points'. Meyer also are very big on phase coherence, as, funnily enough, are l'Acoustics. I would suggest that a "phasey" sound is more likely to be wind or operator error. A phasey sound can be created by mis-timing various system components - eg main hangs, out fill, infill, lip fill, delays etc.  This will lead to phase cancellation and summation at various frequencies and will, to an extent, vary according to where you listen from. If this is what you are describing then I think somebody needs to go back to school.

i am 100% with you.

@Karel:
i have also been in this theatre and i did not have this experience.
i guess, it was the sound optimization workshop.

I've been to various workshops.
Meyer Sim, different d&b, l'acoustic,...

This three named have been the best ones, and every company has his own philosophy, which is ok.
And i think, the way is in the middle of all of them.
( seriously, the SIM is the toughest, but it also takes 5 days )

We also have companys with J here, and they have a really good name, but still, usually they dont do festivals ( at least not bigger ones, i would know that )

[JohnMiller]

Karel 'Charly' Will wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 15:49

Simon Ryder wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 22:04 Hi Mike, The simple reason may be better crew. J series is an extremely phase coherent system as is every other D&B system. Phase coherence is one of their big 'points'. Meyer also are very big on phase coherence, as, funnily enough, are l'Acoustics. I would suggest that a "phasey" sound is more likely to be wind or operator error. A phasey sound can be created by mis-timing various system components - eg main hangs, out fill, infill, lip fill, delays etc.  This will lead to phase cancellation and summation at various frequencies and will, to an extent, vary according to where you listen from. If this is what you are describing then I think somebody needs to go back to school. Hi, I've been holding back while following this thread, but what you're saying is exactly what happened when I attended the d&b training seminar in Backnang. We went to a small theater in town, where they had prepared a full setup, with 3 4 deep left center right Q1 hangs, Q7 in fills, and a couple of E8 front fills on the lip of the stage. All Q hangs were aimed to cater for the full length of the venue, so anywhere in the front half of the venue you had at least 4 different sound sources pointed at you, at more or less the same volume. They didn't care much about time aligning, relying 100% on the Haas effect. The result was a disaster. In the back of the venue, where you had the Q1's and not much else, the sound was excellent, pure d&b delight, very clear and hifi sounding, with almost no EQ. In the front half, it was comb filtering heaven. It sounded "phasey" to an extent I had never heard before. When I questioned their method, I got treated as a dumb*ss. Maybe because I mentioned I just attended the Meyer Sound SIMIII training one week earlier? Their reaction to that was: "You will see a totally different approach here." Very true indeed... That said, it seems very strange to me that all system techs working with the J series would work in the way d&b showed me those 2 days. (Actually, 1 afternoon and 1 morning). I don't think system techs working with such a top notch system would be consistently bad. I'm sure there are some lesser techs amongst them, but all of them? I think J series techs would be on par with the European CVE's and QVT's. BTW: I consider myself a loyal d&b Audiotechnik fanboy, although I was very disappointed after that horrible seminar. I still think their products are second to none. As usual, just my 0,02 TJ (Tom) Cornish Newbie Offline Posts: 0 Re: d&b vs Vdosc JohnMiller wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 07:19 Karel 'Charly' Will wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 15:49 Simon Ryder wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 22:04 Hi Mike, The simple reason may be better crew. J series is an extremely phase coherent system as is every other D&B system. Phase coherence is one of their big 'points'. Meyer also are very big on phase coherence, as, funnily enough, are l'Acoustics. I would suggest that a "phasey" sound is more likely to be wind or operator error. A phasey sound can be created by mis-timing various system components - eg main hangs, out fill, infill, lip fill, delays etc.  This will lead to phase cancellation and summation at various frequencies and will, to an extent, vary according to where you listen from. If this is what you are describing then I think somebody needs to go back to school. Hi, I've been holding back while following this thread, but what you're saying is exactly what happened when I attended the d&b training seminar in Backnang. We went to a small theater in town, where they had prepared a full setup, with 3 4 deep left center right Q1 hangs, Q7 in fills, and a couple of E8 front fills on the lip of the stage. All Q hangs were aimed to cater for the full length of the venue, so anywhere in the front half of the venue you had at least 4 different sound sources pointed at you, at more or less the same volume. They didn't care much about time aligning, relying 100% on the Haas effect. The result was a disaster. In the back of the venue, where you had the Q1's and not much else, the sound was excellent, pure d&b delight, very clear and hifi sounding, with almost no EQ. In the front half, it was comb filtering heaven. It sounded "phasey" to an extent I had never heard before. When I questioned their method, I got treated as a dumb*ss. Maybe because I mentioned I just attended the Meyer Sound SIMIII training one week earlier? Their reaction to that was: "You will see a totally different approach here." Very true indeed... That said, it seems very strange to me that all system techs working with the J series would work in the way d&b showed me those 2 days. (Actually, 1 afternoon and 1 morning). I don't think system techs working with such a top notch system would be consistently bad. I'm sure there are some lesser techs amongst them, but all of them? I think J series techs would be on par with the European CVE's and QVT's. BTW: I consider myself a loyal d&b Audiotechnik fanboy, although I was very disappointed after that horrible seminar. I still think their products are second to none. As usual, just my 0,02 Karel 'Charly' Will Full Member Offline Posts: 179 Re: d&b vs Vdosc Hi John, Thanks for calling me a liar. If you need further details, please let me know. I found the time table and the course notes, but I don't think d&b would like these to be readily available on the Internet. PM is a wonderful tool though... I could tell you details about the venue, catering or show you hotel reservations if needed. I could even get you in touch with the colleague of mine who joined me those 2 days. He didn't attend any SIM training or similar before the d&b seminar, but wasn't very impressed with the results that day either. He too is a very big fan of the d&b speakers. As I said before, I have nothing bad to say about the d&b products. I was just quite unhappy with the (results of the) Sound System Optimisation seminar. Best regards, Karel Will maria pumpernickel Newbie Offline Posts: 5 Re: d&b vs Vdosc ...think we should go back to topic. my vote is also the vdosc. for me it sounds more natural. the j isn´t a bad system but the hi end is a bit to crisp imho maria pumpernickel Newbie Offline Posts: 5 Re: d&b vs Vdosc maria pimpernuckel wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 17:10 ...think we should go back to topic. my vote is also the vdosc. for me it sounds more natural. the j isn´t a bad system but the hi end is a bit to crisp imho forgotten to say j sub need a lot of power. often the sounds a bit indifferent. b2 is more mine but truly a onetonewonder.   Simon Ryder Sr. Member Offline Posts: 370 Re: d&b vs Vdosc maria pimpernuckel wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 07:00 forgotten to say j sub need a lot of power. often the sounds a bit indifferent. b2 is more mine but truly a onetonewonder.   NONE of the D&B stuff needs a lot of power. That is one of it's greatest strengths. You can put a reasonable size system together and run it off a single domestic power outlet. Their philosophy is for low power VERY high efficiency components. The B2 only wants 800 watts period. The J sub wants 800 for the front 2 drivers and 400 for the rear driver. How you can say this system wants lots of power is beyond me. As for the B2 being a one note wonder - it is a band pass sub designed solely to do the bottom octave. It is designed to be used in addition to other subs (C4, C7, Q etc). Used correctly its exceptionally efficient pass band is an asset not a liability. Many users on here will know that I have a predeliction for Nexo Alpha. The S2 which is also widely regarded as one of the finest subs in the world is just as 'one notey' as the B2, also being and extremely efficient band pass design. Again, it is designed to augment other subs / LF cabinets. Evan Kirkendall Hero Member Offline Posts: 6824 Re: d&b vs Vdosc For everyone who has said something negative about the d&b gear: 1. Did it sound like that after you aimed, flew, aligned and EQ'd the rig? 2. After you, the headlining engineer had time to get things dialed in, did you still feel this way? 3. Upon voicing your dislikes of the system with the system engineer, did he work with you to make changes to please you? 4. After mixing a complete show on the system, what did you not like? Or wait... Did you guys just hear the rig at a festival where you weren't the one mixing? Or, was it a festival with no line check and a dB limit preventing you from doing anything useful with the rig? Unless you've actually had the chance to get the rig dialed in(not in a festival situation), then you really can't judge it. Mixing on it for 30 minutes and spending the first 15 minutes of that getting the mix where you want it doesn't really give you a feel for what a system can really do... Evan Not all change is good change. maria pumpernickel Newbie Offline Posts: 5 Re: d&b vs Vdosc @simon why so agressive? this is only my opinion. the d&b´s often act in this way. It´s one of the global players, so cool down Wink every cardiod needs power to kill the backward going energie. this is a fact. there fore i would take endfire array´s but may be d&b want sell more of d12 Cool only the placeing of sub´s is easier with cardiod. the j-sub is only a bass reflex system too. it cant be more efficiency than any bandpass or horn. the j-sub sound is a bit indifferent but i cant say why. may be it coming from personal with out experience in that and it is possible that the handling is to difficult. i don´t know... i know the nexo´s. it´s right to use then as infra only in 1 oct. but different instruments not sound the same as doing it on the b2. i like the b2 but he isn´t a natural sounding one in extreme. Doug Fowler Hero Member Offline Posts: 1702 Re: d&b vs Vdosc Hmmm, 'maria pumpernickel' posts from a Swiss IP. 'maria pumpernickel' registered 4 days ago. 'maria pumpernickel' has lots of opinions about d&b audiotechnik. maria pumpernickel, please identify yourself, and do not post again until you reply to this post. -doug, PSW moderator "It's got electrolytes.  It's got what plants crave." ProSoundWeb Community Re: d&b vs Vdosc Print Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13   Go Up « previous next » ProSoundWeb Community > Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums > SR Forum Archives > LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board FUD Forum Archive > d&b vs Vdosc   Forums © ProSoundWeb SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | Terms and Policies XHTML RSS WAP2 Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc. Page created in 0.035 seconds with 23 queries.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

JohnMiller wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 07:19

Karel 'Charly' Will wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 15:49 Simon Ryder wrote on Thu, 29 April 2010 22:04 Hi Mike, The simple reason may be better crew. J series is an extremely phase coherent system as is every other D&B system. Phase coherence is one of their big 'points'. Meyer also are very big on phase coherence, as, funnily enough, are l'Acoustics. I would suggest that a "phasey" sound is more likely to be wind or operator error. A phasey sound can be created by mis-timing various system components - eg main hangs, out fill, infill, lip fill, delays etc.  This will lead to phase cancellation and summation at various frequencies and will, to an extent, vary according to where you listen from. If this is what you are describing then I think somebody needs to go back to school. Hi, I've been holding back while following this thread, but what you're saying is exactly what happened when I attended the d&b training seminar in Backnang. We went to a small theater in town, where they had prepared a full setup, with 3 4 deep left center right Q1 hangs, Q7 in fills, and a couple of E8 front fills on the lip of the stage. All Q hangs were aimed to cater for the full length of the venue, so anywhere in the front half of the venue you had at least 4 different sound sources pointed at you, at more or less the same volume. They didn't care much about time aligning, relying 100% on the Haas effect. The result was a disaster. In the back of the venue, where you had the Q1's and not much else, the sound was excellent, pure d&b delight, very clear and hifi sounding, with almost no EQ. In the front half, it was comb filtering heaven. It sounded "phasey" to an extent I had never heard before. When I questioned their method, I got treated as a dumb*ss. Maybe because I mentioned I just attended the Meyer Sound SIMIII training one week earlier? Their reaction to that was: "You will see a totally different approach here." Very true indeed... That said, it seems very strange to me that all system techs working with the J series would work in the way d&b showed me those 2 days. (Actually, 1 afternoon and 1 morning). I don't think system techs working with such a top notch system would be consistently bad. I'm sure there are some lesser techs amongst them, but all of them? I think J series techs would be on par with the European CVE's and QVT's. BTW: I consider myself a loyal d&b Audiotechnik fanboy, although I was very disappointed after that horrible seminar. I still think their products are second to none. As usual, just my 0,02 Karel 'Charly' Will Full Member Offline Posts: 179 Re: d&b vs Vdosc Hi John, Thanks for calling me a liar. If you need further details, please let me know. I found the time table and the course notes, but I don't think d&b would like these to be readily available on the Internet. PM is a wonderful tool though... I could tell you details about the venue, catering or show you hotel reservations if needed. I could even get you in touch with the colleague of mine who joined me those 2 days. He didn't attend any SIM training or similar before the d&b seminar, but wasn't very impressed with the results that day either. He too is a very big fan of the d&b speakers. As I said before, I have nothing bad to say about the d&b products. I was just quite unhappy with the (results of the) Sound System Optimisation seminar. Best regards, Karel Will maria pumpernickel Newbie Offline Posts: 5 Re: d&b vs Vdosc ...think we should go back to topic. my vote is also the vdosc. for me it sounds more natural. the j isn´t a bad system but the hi end is a bit to crisp imho maria pumpernickel Newbie Offline Posts: 5 Re: d&b vs Vdosc maria pimpernuckel wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 17:10 ...think we should go back to topic. my vote is also the vdosc. for me it sounds more natural. the j isn´t a bad system but the hi end is a bit to crisp imho forgotten to say j sub need a lot of power. often the sounds a bit indifferent. b2 is more mine but truly a onetonewonder.   Simon Ryder Sr. Member Offline Posts: 370 Re: d&b vs Vdosc maria pimpernuckel wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 07:00 forgotten to say j sub need a lot of power. often the sounds a bit indifferent. b2 is more mine but truly a onetonewonder.   NONE of the D&B stuff needs a lot of power. That is one of it's greatest strengths. You can put a reasonable size system together and run it off a single domestic power outlet. Their philosophy is for low power VERY high efficiency components. The B2 only wants 800 watts period. The J sub wants 800 for the front 2 drivers and 400 for the rear driver. How you can say this system wants lots of power is beyond me. As for the B2 being a one note wonder - it is a band pass sub designed solely to do the bottom octave. It is designed to be used in addition to other subs (C4, C7, Q etc). Used correctly its exceptionally efficient pass band is an asset not a liability. Many users on here will know that I have a predeliction for Nexo Alpha. The S2 which is also widely regarded as one of the finest subs in the world is just as 'one notey' as the B2, also being and extremely efficient band pass design. Again, it is designed to augment other subs / LF cabinets. Evan Kirkendall Hero Member Offline Posts: 6824 Re: d&b vs Vdosc For everyone who has said something negative about the d&b gear: 1. Did it sound like that after you aimed, flew, aligned and EQ'd the rig? 2. After you, the headlining engineer had time to get things dialed in, did you still feel this way? 3. Upon voicing your dislikes of the system with the system engineer, did he work with you to make changes to please you? 4. After mixing a complete show on the system, what did you not like? Or wait... Did you guys just hear the rig at a festival where you weren't the one mixing? Or, was it a festival with no line check and a dB limit preventing you from doing anything useful with the rig? Unless you've actually had the chance to get the rig dialed in(not in a festival situation), then you really can't judge it. Mixing on it for 30 minutes and spending the first 15 minutes of that getting the mix where you want it doesn't really give you a feel for what a system can really do... Evan Not all change is good change. maria pumpernickel Newbie Offline Posts: 5 Re: d&b vs Vdosc @simon why so agressive? this is only my opinion. the d&b´s often act in this way. It´s one of the global players, so cool down Wink every cardiod needs power to kill the backward going energie. this is a fact. there fore i would take endfire array´s but may be d&b want sell more of d12 Cool only the placeing of sub´s is easier with cardiod. the j-sub is only a bass reflex system too. it cant be more efficiency than any bandpass or horn. the j-sub sound is a bit indifferent but i cant say why. may be it coming from personal with out experience in that and it is possible that the handling is to difficult. i don´t know... i know the nexo´s. it´s right to use then as infra only in 1 oct. but different instruments not sound the same as doing it on the b2. i like the b2 but he isn´t a natural sounding one in extreme. Doug Fowler Hero Member Offline Posts: 1702 Re: d&b vs Vdosc Hmmm, 'maria pumpernickel' posts from a Swiss IP. 'maria pumpernickel' registered 4 days ago. 'maria pumpernickel' has lots of opinions about d&b audiotechnik. maria pumpernickel, please identify yourself, and do not post again until you reply to this post. -doug, PSW moderator "It's got electrolytes.  It's got what plants crave." ProSoundWeb Community Re: d&b vs Vdosc Print Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13   Go Up « previous next » ProSoundWeb Community > Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums > SR Forum Archives > LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board FUD Forum Archive > d&b vs Vdosc   Forums © ProSoundWeb SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | Terms and Policies XHTML RSS WAP2 Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc. Page created in 0.035 seconds with 23 queries.

[Karel 'Charly' Will]

Hi John,

Thanks for calling me a liar.

If you need further details, please let me know.
I found the time table and the course notes, but I don't think d&b would like these to be readily available on the Internet. PM is a wonderful tool though...
I could tell you details about the venue, catering or show you hotel reservations if needed. I could even get you in touch with the colleague of mine who joined me those 2 days. He didn't attend any SIM training or similar before the d&b seminar, but wasn't very impressed with the results that day either. He too is a very big fan of the d&b speakers.

As I said before, I have nothing bad to say about the d&b products.
I was just quite unhappy with the (results of the) Sound System Optimisation seminar.

Best regards,

Karel Will

[maria pumpernickel]

...think we should go back to topic. my vote is also the vdosc. for me it sounds more natural. the j isn´t a bad system but the hi end is a bit to crisp imho

[maria pumpernickel]

maria pimpernuckel wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 17:10

...think we should go back to topic. my vote is also the vdosc. for me it sounds more natural. the j isn´t a bad system but the hi end is a bit to crisp imho

forgotten to say j sub need a lot of power. often the sounds a bit indifferent. b2 is more mine but truly a onetonewonder.  

[Simon Ryder]

maria pimpernuckel wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 07:00

forgotten to say j sub need a lot of power. often the sounds a bit indifferent. b2 is more mine but truly a onetonewonder.

NONE of the D&B stuff needs a lot of power. That is one of it's greatest strengths. You can put a reasonable size system together and run it off a single domestic power outlet.

Their philosophy is for low power VERY high efficiency components. The B2 only wants 800 watts period. The J sub wants 800 for the front 2 drivers and 400 for the rear driver. How you can say this system wants lots of power is beyond me.

As for the B2 being a one note wonder - it is a band pass sub designed solely to do the bottom octave. It is designed to be used in addition to other subs (C4, C7, Q etc). Used correctly its exceptionally efficient pass band is an asset not a liability.

Many users on here will know that I have a predeliction for Nexo Alpha. The S2 which is also widely regarded as one of the finest subs in the world is just as 'one notey' as the B2, also being and extremely efficient band pass design. Again, it is designed to augment other subs / LF cabinets.

[Evan Kirkendall]

For everyone who has said something negative about the d&b gear:

1. Did it sound like that after you aimed, flew, aligned and EQ'd the rig?
2. After you, the headlining engineer had time to get things dialed in, did you still feel this way?
3. Upon voicing your dislikes of the system with the system engineer, did he work with you to make changes to please you?
4. After mixing a complete show on the system, what did you not like?

Or wait... Did you guys just hear the rig at a festival where you weren't the one mixing? Or, was it a festival with no line check and a dB limit preventing you from doing anything useful with the rig?

Unless you've actually had the chance to get the rig dialed in(not in a festival situation), then you really can't judge it. Mixing on it for 30 minutes and spending the first 15 minutes of that getting the mix where you want it doesn't really give you a feel for what a system can really do...




Evan

[maria pumpernickel]

@simon
why so agressive? this is only my opinion. the d&b´s often act in this way. It´s one of the global players, so cool down Wink
every cardiod needs power to kill the backward going energie. this is a fact. there fore i would take endfire array´s but may be d&b want sell more of d12 Cool only the placeing of sub´s is easier with cardiod. the j-sub is only a bass reflex system too. it cant be more efficiency than any bandpass or horn. the j-sub sound is a bit indifferent but i cant say why. may be it coming from personal with out experience in that and it is possible that the handling is to difficult. i don´t know...
i know the nexo´s. it´s right to use then as infra only in 1 oct. but different instruments not sound the same as doing it on the b2.
i like the b2 but he isn´t a natural sounding one in extreme.

[Doug Fowler]

Hmmm, 'maria pumpernickel' posts from a Swiss IP.

'maria pumpernickel' registered 4 days ago.

'maria pumpernickel' has lots of opinions about d&b audiotechnik.

maria pumpernickel, please identify yourself, and do not post again until you reply to this post.

-doug, PSW moderator

[ProSoundWeb Community]