Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ben D. Williams]

Hi All,

I am an audio guy working on designing a system for a church. I know enough about video to be dangerous and while I am familiar with some of the equipment out there, I want to bounce this off of the true experts to see what you come up with..

Sources are as follows:

3 cameras (Component, 1080P)
DVD Playback (Component, upscaled to 1080p)
2 PC's (RGB)

Output buses are:

Front Sanctuary screens (scaled to 1280x768)
Rear Samctuary screen (scaled to 1280x768)
Narthex monitors (1080 p, also serve digital signage function)
In house CCTV monitors (1080p, Sunday school rooms, choir room, etc..)
HDV recorder (archival, 1080p) + DVD recorder (scaled down, for weekly distribution)

The trick is that the outputs need to be capable of displaying different combinations of sources based on what is going on in the service. Most of the switching equipment I'm familiar with (that is, equipment that is feasible budget-wise for a church with a 1400-seat sanctuary) is set up for one output bus only or a main and preview bus.

The first thing I did was to attempt to think of all the possible of routing scenarios that would be needed:

http://www.essentialaudioinc.com/video_scenarios.pdf

I then attempted to think through what the signal flow would look like with individual components:

http://www.essentialaudioinc.com/video_signal_flow.pdf

I am envisioning 2 "stages" of control, the first being the camera switcher and the second being some sort of control device that recalls presets on multiple device. Seamless transitions matter for the front sanctuary projectors and recording but not for the other outputs.

Thought about going HD-SDI but a manufacturer talked me out of it for this scenario. Looking at sticking with RGBHV. Want to be sure to minimize video delay for IMAG.. Cameras are not gen lockable..

What products would you recommend to accomplish this? To give an idea of budget, I have been looking at the Panasonic AV-HS400A for the camera switcher and Kramer/Extron level stuff for the rest. Definitely do not have the budget for a large-format broadcast-style switcher but do want quality. Is there a single box solution capable doing the routing seamlessly? Thanks for the help!!

[Ken Freeman]

Bigger Router.  It is pretty easy to mix analog HD component, RGB and VGA signals and pull all of that into a control surface.  Things get a little messy when you satrtong moving SDI and HD SDI alongside this.  If you are clever and speak RS-232, extron makes some pretty robust (as in might last 10 years) scaler-switchers that can do this in conjunction with a one of their multi-signal routers.

Ken

[Brad Weber]

Are you looking at 1080p for a specific reason?  1080p cameras, switching, etc. is likely to greatly increase the cost versus 1080i or 720p.  If the projectors are 1280x768 then they will have to scale down a 1080p signal and I think that the Panasonic AV-HS400A you noted only handles 1080i or 720p, not 1080p nor 1920x1080 RGBHV, so you might want to reconsider the 1080p resolutions noted and maybe look at 720p instead.

All of the 720p, 1080i or 1080p sources and destinations are 16:9 format.  I believe that for analog sources the Panasonic AV-HS400A supports 1080i or 720p (16:9) for analog component I/O and 1024x768 (4:3), 1280x768 (15:9) or 1280x1024 (5:4) for DVI-I I/O.  The 1280x768 resolution for the projectors is a 15:9 format.  Although not an extreme difference, since you seem to potentially have both 15:9 and 16:9 sources and destinations, you might want to think about how you will handle this and whether it might affect anything.

I think that the tiered switching arrangement could be difficult to operate, at least if you are trying to do so with one operator.  Controlling and switching the cameras in addition to dealing with the two PCs and the other switching may be too much for one person. Even with two operators they are going to have to coordinate to avoid things like switching presets before the camera operator is ready. Not knowing the available operators and techs or what they are coming from this type of issue is difficult to address.

There are CAT5 solutions that will handle RGBHV and serial control or even RGBHV, audio and serial control on a single cable.

I noted that your system sketch seems to have not accounted for the rear projector in the Sanctuary.  You might also want to consider treating the DVD player more like the computers, if you run the DVD through the camera switcher as shown then there is no guarantee it will be displayed when you go to the 'DVD Playback' preset as it also has to be selected on the camera switcher.  I also would consider adding sync/genlock so that all the switchers and recording devices can also be sync'd.

[Eric Madson]

I have used the Extron ISM824 in senarios like this. You would need 2 ISM RGB cards and an ISM SC card. Both these cards will handle pretty much any type of input. Will handle 8 inputs

One RGB card for projectors. TP series for CAT5 distro

The other RGB looped could drive all 1080P displays. You would need to some type of Video DA to drive that many displays. 2 TP's

The SC will do all the scaling for the DVD recorder.

Transactions or fairly seamless with user settings for delay. Unit can be controlled via RS-232 or IP.

Have used the Vadio production switchers on the front end.

[Karl P(eterson)]

Actually, if this was me I would go the HDSDI route.

This would be a big selling issue to the church because this isn't the cheaper way to go - but it certainly is a better one. Enough that I think it justifies itself in this application.

If It were me, I would bring your cameras in HDSDI, and convert your DVD/Computers to HDSDI with something like the TV-One C2-2355A (one for each device in question....). If your Cameras aren't already HDSDI just run them in 1080i or 720p (whichever you want to support through the whole system) and use a simple AJA HD A/D box.

Then you feed your inputs through a switcher like the Panasonic you mentioned and go on to something like a 16x16 matrix. You also bring the outputs of the Panasonic back into other input(s) on the matrix.

Then you run the outputs of the matrix straight hdsdi to the projectors and use an AJA box at each projector to bust them down to DVI/HDMI there. Then use two C2-2255A's to drive the VGA over Cat5 system(s). Then you would use some more AJA boxes to downconvert the HDSDI to SD-Analog for the DVD recorder and may need a simple AJA D/A to feed an HD Deck. You might want to look at just recording to a machine with a blackmagic card in it instead of a proper deck.

Then all you need to do is make sure your matrix is by the switcher and connect your RS-232 system to the matrix as well.

Now, you can run the system with or without the Panasonic in operation and can patch anything anywhere.

You also have the ability to do proper linear keys for lower 3rds if the customer wants to add that equipment down the road.

Depending on your cable plant and how many conversions you need to do, it may make sense to utilize an AJA rack with cards as opposed to having a dozen mini converters lying around.

You also would probably want to install double switchers and let the recording mix be switched separately if that is a main problem.

A (big) upgrade would be to use the new Panasonic HS-450 switchers, which would give you a bunch of aux busses and make it simple to control the whole shooting match from the switcher if you so desired. With the standard 400 you will probably only end up switching the main screens and running the rest from the router panel.

There is no correct way to do a project like this. You could certainly find success with a variety of other routing switchers on the market with the Extron unit mentioned being particularly viable.

However, when I start seeing 750+ seat rooms with cameras and real routing needs, I believe it is time to make the jump to HDSDI. Even if you have to convert both sides to HDSDI to do it. The benefits are simply to great to ignore.

Remember to run enough cable to clock everything down the road when it comes time to do a truly pro system.

Edit: As a final note, the drawing that you have looks overly complex and with a lot of potential for frustration for the end client. Have you considered bringing on a video system designer to help you with this? It looks like you could use a little more experience on this project.

If you do continue to go down this route make sure you explain the complicated nature of this setup to your client. At the moment, with how you have it drawn, it looks like a 3 man operation, not counting all the computers.

Karl P

[Ben D. Williams]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

I think that a single-box solution (capable of recalling routing presets) would be the ideal for sure.  I made the diagram because a manufacturer's tech support person suggested I do so to get my head wrapped around what the signal flow would look like, were the system to be comprised of a bunch of individual components.  The only way to make a system with so many different components user-friendly would be to have a single RS232 control panel sending commands to all of the different devices.  Running everything through one big matrix definitely makes a lot of sense, assuming all of the devices are speaking the same language.

The new Panasonic unit looks very interesting indeed!  Any idea where the MSRP is going to come in?  Looks like it might fit the bill very nicely.  Are there any similar products from other manufacturers I should be looking at?  To me, it looks as though there are limited options for video switchers with aux sends without getting into larger frame, broadcast ($50K+) level gear.

The reason I was opting for 1080P cameras was because I was trying to help the client avoid investing in technology that has essentially already become antiquated when current technology can be had for 30% more, which seems to be the case with high quality PTZ cameras.

The reason I opted against 1080P projector is that the price difference to get up to 1080p is much greater than it is with cameras.  Also, based on my limited experience, it seems likely that they will replace the projectors sooner than they replace the cameras and switcher/routing infrastructure.

Am I off base in my thinking?  Thanks again for all the comments!  Please keep them coming, they are a great help..

[Brad Weber]

Ben D.  Williams wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 05:51

The reason I was opting for 1080P cameras was because I was trying to help the client avoid investing in technology that has essentially already become antiquated when current technology can be had for 30% more, which seems to be the case with high quality PTZ cameras. The reason I opted against 1080P projector is that the price difference to get up to 1080p is much greater than it is with cameras.  Also, based on my limited experience, it seems likely that they will replace the projectors sooner than they replace the cameras and switcher/routing infrastructure.

You feel that 1080i/720p is already antiquated?  What cameras did you have in mind?  My experience is that moving from 1080i/720p to 1080p is currently typically more than a 30% difference.  And planning for higher resolution can also extend beyond the system components to encompass lighting, finishes and so on.  Then there is the issue of whether there is really any benefit to 1080p in this application and if technology may have moved beyond 1080p by the time the church would change out the projector, switcher and so on.  You may also run into details such as whether your DVD player will support 1080p on the analog component output if they play a commercial DVD or whether that would require using a digital output and addressing HDCP.

A better understanding of the project is necessary to address some of these issues as well as to really do much other than speak in generalities or comment on what you already show.  Since you seem to work for a design-build Contractor, I also assume that you are getting paid for designing this system and possibly would be providing the equipment as well as installing it.  I have been in similar situations where I am asked to address areas in which my knowledge and experience is more limited and my approach is to subcontract or team with others who do have expertise in those areas, I feel this best serves the client's interests.  You might want to consider a similar approach.