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[John Roberts {JR}]

Nick Boulton wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 04:39

Ahem, Quote:  Ice core drilling in the fast ice off Australia's Davis Station in East Antarctica by the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Co-Operative Research Centre shows that last year, the ice had a maximum thickness of 1.89m, its densest in 10 years. The average thickness of the ice at Davis since the 1950s is 1.67m. Maximum != Average

Yes.

Perhaps I should have excerpted the lead paragraph, instead.

Quote:

ICE is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap.

This is just one data point in a very complex system, but this "data" is contrary to the one sided image widely presented of the ice pack disappearing into the sea. If the current thickness is more than the average thickness and increasing, that seems to contradict the "we're melting everywhere" scenario. The bottom line is total gains and losses,  but be informed that it's not all losses as the popular press would have us believe.

I would be just as wrong to extrapolate too much from this one data point, as the "we're melting" crowd. I only submit that this is more complicated than people suggest.

JR

[Larry Robbins]

Natural warm and cold periods in geological time are being accelerated by our irresponsible development of industry without understanding the consequences.
China is now the primary example of a newly industrial - ravenous for increased capacity and wealth - society.

IMO, the wild growth in human population and our desire to have an advanced and comfortable lifestyle is so seriously overburdening the planet's ability to  support such, that a die-off is inevitable unless the planet follows (interesting that it is) China's example of negative population growth for several generations.

Now here is an opportunity to get into both forbidden basement topics  

[Tom Reid]

We've ate away enough of the ozone that it isn't a protective barrier against the suns cosmic rays.  As we approach 2012 we will see heavy activity in solar flares due to alignemnts in the solar system.

At the same time the magnetic field around the world is collapsing and due to switch poles.  This field protects us from the gamma radiation of the sun.  

By 12/21/2012 we will be in perfect alignment with the black hole of the milkyway.  Because of the natural occurances of depleting ozone and magnetic fields we are all toast.

Failing electrical grids will be the first indicator.

Man has spent enough time on this rock.  The 85 million year cycle will again purge the planet so it can start all over again.

[Ryan Lantzy]

Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 01:56

Ryan Lantzy wrote on Sun, 19 April 2009 22:37 From Wikipedia: Total energy use in one year from burning fossil fuels: 4.5e20 J Total energy from the Sun striking the Earth's surface per year: 5.5e24 J If you added up all the energy burned in fossil fuels since the industrial revolution, it would not equal the output of the Sun striking the Earth in one year. Sun wins, case closed. Hilarious! Photons (the effect of) do have significant byproducts after entering our atmosphere. The out-gassing from the combustion that occurs on the Sun is not within our atmosphere, and is impossible to correlate to the out-gassing that burning fossil fuels within our atmosphere has - by simply comparing raw energy numbers. Think of it as an extension cord from 93 million miles away.

My point is there is a certain amount of energy released in burning fossil fuels.  Some of that energy does work.  The other parts contribute to the entropy of the earth/solar system/universe.  The sun inputs energy into this planet, which causes living things to, for lack of a better word, "combat" entropy.  That forcing is 10,000 times greater per year than the entropy we cause.

I'm a believer in science, and that's why I think Anthropogenic Global warming (to induce any catastrophic failure) is a complete and utter joke.

[Dave Dermont]

Tom Reid wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 12:11

We've ate away enough of the ozone that it isn't a protective barrier against the suns cosmic rays.  As we approach 2012 we will see heavy activity in solar flares due to alignemnts in the solar system. At the same time the magnetic field around the world is collapsing and due to switch poles.  This field protects us from the gamma radiation of the sun.   By 12/21/2012 we will be in perfect alignment with the black hole of the milkyway.  Because of the natural occurances of depleting ozone and magnetic fields we are all toast. Failing electrical grids will be the first indicator. Man has spent enough time on this rock.  The 85 million year cycle will again purge the planet so it can start all over again.

...and a fine good morning to you too!    

[Christian Tepfer]

On the topic of earth vs. mankind:

- mankind does need earth
- earth does not need and even don't care about mankind

[Kristian Johnsen]

Ryan Lantzy wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 18:16

Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 01:56 Ryan Lantzy wrote on Sun, 19 April 2009 22:37 From Wikipedia: Total energy use in one year from burning fossil fuels: 4.5e20 J Total energy from the Sun striking the Earth's surface per year: 5.5e24 J If you added up all the energy burned in fossil fuels since the industrial revolution, it would not equal the output of the Sun striking the Earth in one year. Sun wins, case closed. Hilarious! Photons (the effect of) do have significant byproducts after entering our atmosphere. The out-gassing from the combustion that occurs on the Sun is not within our atmosphere, and is impossible to correlate to the out-gassing that burning fossil fuels within our atmosphere has - by simply comparing raw energy numbers. Think of it as an extension cord from 93 million miles away. My point is there is a certain amount of energy released in burning fossil fuels.  Some of that energy does work.  The other parts contribute to the entropy of the earth/solar system/universe.  The sun inputs energy into this planet, which causes living things to, for lack of a better word, "combat" entropy.  That forcing is 10,000 times greater per year than the entropy we cause. I'm a believer in science, and that's why I think Anthropogenic Global warming (to induce any catastrophic failure) is a complete and utter joke.

The problem here is:

a).  The gases all this burning of fuel produces is suffocation us on a local level.

b).  On a global level, the buildup of gases in the atmosphere makes it work even more like a one-way mirror, shiny side in.  The energy from the sun reaches earth but can't be reflected back out and just combines with the heat we are producing to make the earth even hotter - bad cycle.

I thought this was old news by now....

[Tom Bourke]

If the 2012 predictions are correct then all kinds of fun is about to hit us!  These predictions come from several of the ancient civilisations.  What I find interesting is they were able to see and predict some astrological  events.  They were also able to suggest some impact they would have on society.  Some of it is right, some is not.  How close is scary tho.

We strive so hard to predict what will happen in the next few months or year or two that I think we lose site of the real future.  The only ones really doing any long term predictions are the SciFi writers.  And we only look to them for entertainment.

The way I see it change is happening. Climate change, changes in economy, technology, us.  For some of us it is happening too fast, for some too slow.  Others don't even know there on the ride!  The climate and economy are too complex for any one person, or even group of people, to understand.  The best we can do right now is use computers to visualise each in some meaning full way.  Or maybe the best thing to do is turn off the computers for a bit and just dream.

As a society we need to change.  Both as an innate drive AND if we are going to survive.  The direction I think we should head is towards local capture and production of energy and food.  The farmers are in the best situation to help us.  They capture the energy from the sun using soil, labour, and equipment to feed us.  I think they can also capture energy for our transportation and industry.  We just need to figure out a way for that to happen with out creating another Dust Bowl.  Current agricultural methods and trends are heading that way again.

[Tom Reid]

Dave Dermont wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 12:59

Tom Reid wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 12:11 We've ate away enough of the ozone that it isn't a protective barrier against the suns cosmic rays.  As we approach 2012 we will see heavy activity in solar flares due to alignemnts in the solar system. At the same time the magnetic field around the world is collapsing and due to switch poles.  This field protects us from the gamma radiation of the sun.   By 12/21/2012 we will be in perfect alignment with the black hole of the milkyway.  Because of the natural occurances of depleting ozone and magnetic fields we are all toast. Failing electrical grids will be the first indicator. Man has spent enough time on this rock.  The 85 million year cycle will again purge the planet so it can start all over again. ...and a fine good morning to you too!

I couldn't believe I avoided religion and politics in this post either.
Someone (now unemployed) dropped an SRX728 on my foot Saturday.
Unfortunately I was wearing my New Balances and not steel toes.
Nothing broke, but I'm gimpy and bitchy (more than normal   ).

There's a lot of speculative information about what is going to happen.  And the same credence can be applied to it as is with some of the so called scientific 'fact'.   The Mayans, Nostradamas (sp), NASA, the Bible, the Koran, all indicate 'something' is happening.
Maybe that's why we're spending money like there's no tomorrow?

[Charlie Zureki]

Ryan Lantzy wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 11:16

I'm a believer in science, and that's why I think Anthropogenic Global warming (to induce any catastrophic failure) is a complete and utter joke.

  Really...?

 Most animal life lives or dies by a specific mix and percentage of gas it breathes. That same fact holds true for the vegetation that replenishes the Oxygen in the air, Humans and Animals breathe, in exchange for the Carbon Dioxide it must have to survive.

 If the vegetation that we depend on is diminished or  disappears... no Carbon Dioxide for Oxygen exchange could occur, and the CO2 levels would continue to rise. These higher levels would make Human and most Animal life impossible.

 Now... how much Carbon Dioxide are we pumping into the air? How many Millions of acres of forests, swamps and wooded land are being cleared annually? What will replace the natural air cleaners?

 Add, the amount of Carbon Dioxide a typical human exhales per year x the Billions of humans, add the coal fired energy plant exhaust of CO2,add the CO2 from building heating systems,and backyard barbecue pits, add the World's Animal exhalation, add the CO2 from the Hundreds of Millions of Automobiles in the World, add the CO2 that's released from deep within the Earth....

 
  Humans throughout history have affected their environment.

They have over-fished, over-hunted, over-planted, over-bred, and changed the natural ecosystem via terracing, planting the wrong crops, diverting waterways, introducing invasive species of plants and animals.

 To dismiss the idea that Man could not/will not induce Global warming is neither "science" nor a "joke".

 The Earth is round and it does revolve around the Sun. Thunder is not made by angry gods. Sacrificing animals will not make it rain. Alchemists cannot make gold....etc...

This is America, and contrary to what some Politicians would like... you still have the right to believe what you choose to believe.

Hammer