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Author Topic: Bag End Subwoofers  (Read 21395 times)

Chris Carpenter

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Bag End Subwoofers
« on: March 03, 2011, 04:01:26 am »

I went to see a show on campus called High Voltage. It was an experimental show set up by some of the grads and PhDs in the theater department. Basically, they had 18 mains (15" Bag End) set up in a small space each positioned and angled to give a really spacious musical experience.

I had never heard of Bag End speakers, but one of the things I noticed was the quality of the bass. The highs seemed a bit hot, and there seemed to be limited mids (may have been the content), but the bass was incredible. The only visible sub was a dual 18, which I presume was the D18E-I, though i think they had one or two more out of sight. Anyways, i was looking online at the data sheet and it appears, with the controller, the frequency response is 8-95Hz at+/-3Db. They also have a 12" version with the same response. How do they manage that with so few enclosures? Does the controller simply jack up the very low bass to compensate? During the performance, I never heard (felt) anything I would guess was 8Hz, but they definitely hit low 20s with very few cabinets. What can you guys tell me about that setup?
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duane massey

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2011, 09:29:53 pm »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.
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Duane Massey
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Gary A. Perrett

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2011, 11:44:00 pm »

1+ for small setups or rooms they are ~ok~ They make it out that a pair of speakers the size of a bag of flour will fill a stadium...Mostly unimpressed...but like anything if you throw enough product at the room you'll have a decent  product, But my take is, that they have to hype the infrasonics to the point that the overall output is less than other offerings... across the board.
G
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 10:16:15 am »

What can you guys tell me about that setup?

Infra (nee "ELF") technology requires a SEALED loudspeaker enclosure.  Infra controller info can be found here:

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/what_is_infra.htm



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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 01:36:26 pm »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.

Yeah, I could see that. The material presented at the show seemed minimal compared to the quantity of loudspeakers they had on hand.
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Sheldon Harris

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 03:32:36 am »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.

+1. really nice for indoor stuff. smooth low frequency extension, unfortunately they fall short when driven hard.
if i remember correctly i think a lot of that low frequency extension was done by the processor and taking it out of the loop made a huge difference (negative impact) on the sound.( reference: the quartz i think 4- 18" did not keep them long)
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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 06:48:37 pm »

+1. really nice for indoor stuff. smooth low frequency extension, unfortunately they fall short when driven hard.
if i remember correctly i think a lot of that low frequency extension was done by the processor and taking it out of the loop made a huge difference (negative impact) on the sound.( reference: the quartz i think 4- 18" did not keep them long)

So if all the lf extension is due to the controller, why do the boxes have to be sealed?
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Sheldon Harris

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 11:54:19 pm »

So if all the lf extension is due to the controller, why do the boxes have to be sealed?

i have no detailed knowledge of the bag-end products, just an end use at one time. statement about the controller is purely by observation (of course i would send some signal through them without the controller at some point)

to answer your question: if i wanted to achieve extreme low frequency output from a sub i could eq the hell out of it (but it will fall on its face due to excursion) so i then design a sealed box that offers more control. which, by its very nature of roll-off at fb, will offer me even more low frequency extension at the expense of efficiency.
sheldon

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duane massey

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 11:59:14 pm »

Admittedly only my opinion, but it makes little sense to me to pound the crap out of a woofer in a small box if you want loud and low. Don't care what the processor does, the woofer will still beat itself to death at high output levels.
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Duane Massey
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Art Welter

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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 10:27:41 am »

So if all the lf extension is due to the controller, why do the boxes have to be sealed?
Bag End explains it all in their product hype. The speaker is processed with a bass boost compensating for the 12 dB per octave  falling response a speaker has in a sealed box. This sealed box response is very predictable, and fairly simple filters can be used, a ported or horn loaded box would require a more complicated controller dedicated to each cabinet alignment.
The extreme LF boost quickly uses up the rather limited excursion capability of the speakers Bag End uses, so a frequency dependent limiter is engaged to keep LF from exceeding Xmax at high drive levels, referred to as “concealment”, which hides the fact that the system produces far less LF than drivers with more Xmax potential in ported or horn loaded enclosures.

“The ELF concealment performs dynamic control
of reducing the low frequency extension. It will
allow the system to play with the upper bass notes
unaffected while protecting the system from overload
caused by playing the lower notes louder than the
amplifier and/or loudspeaker can reproduce safely and
undistorted.”

“While the INFRASUB-18 will reproduce 8 Hz, it
is not audible nor does it have enough acoustical
power for you to feel it
. The measurements
are taken at close range with sensitive instruments.
To achieve a flat response, as shown in
figure 1, full amplifier power is used at the lowest
frequencies and very little (<1 Watt) in the
upper frequency range.”

Indeed.

Art Welter
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Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 10:27:41 am »


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