ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Bag End Subwoofers  (Read 21666 times)

Chris Carpenter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
  • Baton Rouge
Bag End Subwoofers
« on: March 03, 2011, 04:01:26 am »

I went to see a show on campus called High Voltage. It was an experimental show set up by some of the grads and PhDs in the theater department. Basically, they had 18 mains (15" Bag End) set up in a small space each positioned and angled to give a really spacious musical experience.

I had never heard of Bag End speakers, but one of the things I noticed was the quality of the bass. The highs seemed a bit hot, and there seemed to be limited mids (may have been the content), but the bass was incredible. The only visible sub was a dual 18, which I presume was the D18E-I, though i think they had one or two more out of sight. Anyways, i was looking online at the data sheet and it appears, with the controller, the frequency response is 8-95Hz at+/-3Db. They also have a 12" version with the same response. How do they manage that with so few enclosures? Does the controller simply jack up the very low bass to compensate? During the performance, I never heard (felt) anything I would guess was 8Hz, but they definitely hit low 20s with very few cabinets. What can you guys tell me about that setup?
Logged

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1529
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2011, 09:29:53 pm »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Gary A. Perrett

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2011, 11:44:00 pm »

1+ for small setups or rooms they are ~ok~ They make it out that a pair of speakers the size of a bag of flour will fill a stadium...Mostly unimpressed...but like anything if you throw enough product at the room you'll have a decent  product, But my take is, that they have to hype the infrasonics to the point that the overall output is less than other offerings... across the board.
G
Logged

Doug Fowler

  • Member since May 1995, 2nd poster on original LAB, moderator on and off since 1997, now running TurboMOD v1.826
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1699
  • Saint Louis, MO USA
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 10:16:15 am »

What can you guys tell me about that setup?

Infra (nee "ELF") technology requires a SEALED loudspeaker enclosure.  Infra controller info can be found here:

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/what_is_infra.htm



Logged
"It's got electrolytes.  It's got what plants crave."

Chris Carpenter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
  • Baton Rouge
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 01:36:26 pm »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.

Yeah, I could see that. The material presented at the show seemed minimal compared to the quantity of loudspeakers they had on hand.
Logged

Sheldon Harris

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 03:32:36 am »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.

+1. really nice for indoor stuff. smooth low frequency extension, unfortunately they fall short when driven hard.
if i remember correctly i think a lot of that low frequency extension was done by the processor and taking it out of the loop made a huge difference (negative impact) on the sound.( reference: the quartz i think 4- 18" did not keep them long)
Logged

Chris Carpenter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
  • Baton Rouge
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 06:48:37 pm »

+1. really nice for indoor stuff. smooth low frequency extension, unfortunately they fall short when driven hard.
if i remember correctly i think a lot of that low frequency extension was done by the processor and taking it out of the loop made a huge difference (negative impact) on the sound.( reference: the quartz i think 4- 18" did not keep them long)

So if all the lf extension is due to the controller, why do the boxes have to be sealed?
Logged

Sheldon Harris

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 11:54:19 pm »

So if all the lf extension is due to the controller, why do the boxes have to be sealed?

i have no detailed knowledge of the bag-end products, just an end use at one time. statement about the controller is purely by observation (of course i would send some signal through them without the controller at some point)

to answer your question: if i wanted to achieve extreme low frequency output from a sub i could eq the hell out of it (but it will fall on its face due to excursion) so i then design a sealed box that offers more control. which, by its very nature of roll-off at fb, will offer me even more low frequency extension at the expense of efficiency.
sheldon

Logged

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1529
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 11:59:14 pm »

Admittedly only my opinion, but it makes little sense to me to pound the crap out of a woofer in a small box if you want loud and low. Don't care what the processor does, the woofer will still beat itself to death at high output levels.
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Art Welter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1576
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 10:27:41 am »

So if all the lf extension is due to the controller, why do the boxes have to be sealed?
Bag End explains it all in their product hype. The speaker is processed with a bass boost compensating for the 12 dB per octave  falling response a speaker has in a sealed box. This sealed box response is very predictable, and fairly simple filters can be used, a ported or horn loaded box would require a more complicated controller dedicated to each cabinet alignment.
The extreme LF boost quickly uses up the rather limited excursion capability of the speakers Bag End uses, so a frequency dependent limiter is engaged to keep LF from exceeding Xmax at high drive levels, referred to as “concealment”, which hides the fact that the system produces far less LF than drivers with more Xmax potential in ported or horn loaded enclosures.

“The ELF concealment performs dynamic control
of reducing the low frequency extension. It will
allow the system to play with the upper bass notes
unaffected while protecting the system from overload
caused by playing the lower notes louder than the
amplifier and/or loudspeaker can reproduce safely and
undistorted.”

“While the INFRASUB-18 will reproduce 8 Hz, it
is not audible nor does it have enough acoustical
power for you to feel it
. The measurements
are taken at close range with sensitive instruments.
To achieve a flat response, as shown in
figure 1, full amplifier power is used at the lowest
frequencies and very little (<1 Watt) in the
upper frequency range.”

Indeed.

Art Welter
Logged

Pascal.Pincosy

  • SR Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 09:54:39 am »

At low to moderate volume levels their subs are OK, but at more demanding levels they start to get really sloppy, and failures are way too common, at least in my experience with local clubs that used their subs. There are better choices out there, IMHO.
I maintain a large nightclub that has 12 D18-I subs in their main room (1000 capacity floor + 200 balcony). These subs can go down very low, and despite the frequent claims that doing so will eat all available power, they can do so at decent levels. Sloppy output is tamed by using proper limiter settings on the ELF processor, but in the end, this is just not that great of a sub. Plenty of distortion and in-precise output. But they do go low and can send vibrations through large amounts of concrete. I would never buy anything from Bag End personally, but I'm willing to use them. And when you need solid response down to 20Hz, there are not many other options out there.
Logged

jabney (john abney)

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 09:40:22 pm »

Admittedly only my opinion, but it makes little sense to me to pound the crap out of a woofer in a small box if you want loud and low. Don't care what the processor does, the woofer will still beat itself to death at high output levels.
The dual 12" BagEnd with the XLR-equipped ELF Integrator is designed for use down to the mid twenties. (The 8Hz device is RCAs and home theaters.) The nice thing about the dual 12" is that just about anybody you send out with it will be able to lift it.

A single channel of a Crest CA9 was able to drive a pair of the BagEnd dual 12s in a 500 capacity room and have it sound big enough for the primary renter to threaten to pull the plug, while coming nowhere close to taxing the amp. In this room each BagEnd sub's pole socket held a fixed-length pole with a BagEnd 2000 (a two-way 12" and a horn) on top. Everything was time-aligned by design. The 2000's passive crossover is part of the sound, and I could hear no indication that bi-amping the tops would be a big advantage (or indeed any advantage at all).

You can cheat the ELF Integrator on the top end; but I'd route the bass frequencies through the ELF.

For a one person crew, a BagEnd system can have some weight advantages. A well-powered BagEnd 12 over 12's rig can kick.

best,

john
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 11:49:23 am by jabney (john abney) »
Logged

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2011, 03:20:19 pm »

I haven't posted here for a while, but from my personal research and experience, If you need True High output bass in the sub 40Hz range, and especially in the 20Hz Range. 

As far as I know the Difference between the ELF and Infra, is that Ron Wickersham from Alembic had a falling out with the Guys at Bag End, and is no longer allowing them to use his ELF circuit, I doubt there is very much difference in the Infra Controller.

    A Bag End ELF or INFRA doesn't have any advantage because  at the end of the day.  You are going to need to have about the same cu' in cabinet if you used a ported cabinet, And more than Twice the Amplifier.

     And compared to a tapped horn you'll probably need double the cu' of cabinet and more than twice the power.

What they do to get the Bass Response out of ELF / Infra Subs is they use the Predictable 12dB per octave Roll off of a sealed Sub woofer.

And use a simple Electronic circuit Called an Integrator (which has a constant 6dB per octave slope that starts rolling off bellow DC)  They put two of them in Series which gives a 12dB per octave slope (hence Dual Integrator).  They line these slopes up with the cabinets roll off knee to yield a flat response that rolls off above the knee (Unless, they sum with a high pass filter).  I think the final stage is a compressor limiter that probably has a side chain that prevents the amp from ever over-driving the amplifier with respect to the EQslope.
I'm not sure what the current rated sensitivity of the ELF/Infra system is above the knee, but with this approach Maximum output bellow the knee is heavily limited.  If the knee is at 50Hz and the output there is 95dB @ 1 Watt, then it will take 20Watts for the cabinet to produce 95dB @ 25Hz, and 400Watts to produce 95dB @ 12.5Hz (Which I doubt is going to happen).

Maybe some of the more experienced Members here Can comment but I remember reading some in some statement that using the Dual integrator circuit somehow bends the phase back in the right direction.  I haven't compared the phase characteristics of a Low pass filter, or Linkwitz-Transform Circuit VS a "Dual Integrator", but I don't see how its a better phase shift.

     Another Thought about the ELF/Infra, I've only seen a couple but, it doesn't look like the cones and surrounds they are using are actually appropriate for the application.  Basic Pulp Cone with Accordion style surrounds, Just by looking at them I'm imagining a lot of mechanical noise and distortion from the cone.  I'm sure that 8Hz through one of those at its maximum power is going to have a lot of distortion, and that the 8Hz tone will never cross the threshold of audibility, even if they are using a very exotic spider and surround that is totally silent 8hz is not going to be able to cross the threshold of audibility without a huge amount of Cabinets, and if it did you and your audience might not like it very much.

Wuts up LAB.

Antone-
Logged

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2011, 09:13:46 pm »

Wut I have newbie Status, Wut happened to my "Has No Life" Status.

Damn I guess things change when your away for a while.
Logged

Matt Errend

  • SR Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 81
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2011, 02:57:07 am »

Another Thought about the ELF/Infra, I've only seen a couple but, it doesn't look like the cones and surrounds they are using are actually appropriate for the application.  Basic Pulp Cone with Accordion style surrounds, Just by looking at them I'm imagining a lot of mechanical noise and distortion from the cone.  I'm sure that 8Hz through one of those at its maximum power is going to have a lot of distortion, and that the 8Hz tone will never cross the threshold of audibility, even if they are using a very exotic spider and surround that is totally silent 8hz is not going to be able to cross the threshold of audibility without a huge amount of Cabinets, and if it did you and your audience might not like it very much.

Wuts up LAB.

Antone-

Which is why in the home theater world at least one company (Triad) had marketing for a few years stating their subs as "better than Bag End". The powersub line is similar in concept to the BE infra products, with sealed enclosures with compensation circuitry to, but the drivers they selected were more appropriate for the task.

IMO the Triad platinum powersub line from them is still to this day one of the most musical subwoofers I have ever heard.
Logged

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2011, 12:39:24 pm »

Which is why in the home theater world at least one company (Triad) had marketing for a few years stating their subs as "better than Bag End". The powersub line is similar in concept to the BE infra products, with sealed enclosures with compensation circuitry to, but the drivers they selected were more appropriate for the task.

IMO the Triad platinum powersub line from them is still to this day one of the most musical subwoofers I have ever heard.

      Don't ever say the phrase "musical subwoofer" on a pro audio board, then men in the butterfly nets will take you away  ::).
I don't know what the Triads sound like, all of the audiophile shops in my neck of the woods have shut down, but talking to those guys was frustrating.

     Is this audiophile.  I build this sealed sub with 4 lab 12's and 2 1KW B&O ICE amps.  I used the DSP engine to sum some filters to approximate a linkwitz-transform.  Very clean, no mechanical noise that I can hear.  Its fun to close my interior door and run a sweep from 30 to 5 Hz and watch the my door violently chatter.



It only weighs 175 lbs  :o really fun to move.
Logged

Jeff Bankston

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2269
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 02:36:39 pm »

Which is why in the home theater world at least one company (Triad) had marketing for a few years stating their subs as "better than Bag End". The powersub line is similar in concept to the BE infra products, with sealed enclosures with compensation circuitry to, but the drivers they selected were more appropriate for the task.

IMO the Triad platinum powersub line from them is still to this day one of the most musical subwoofers I have ever heard.

      Don't ever say the phrase "musical subwoofer" on a pro audio board, then men in the butterfly nets will take you away  ::).
I don't know what the Triads sound like, all of the audiophile shops in my neck of the woods have shut down, but talking to those guys was frustrating.

     Is this audiophile.  I build this sealed sub with 4 lab 12's and 2 1KW B&O ICE amps.  I used the DSP engine to sum some filters to approximate a linkwitz-transform.  Very clean, no mechanical noise that I can hear.  Its fun to close my interior door and run a sweep from 30 to 5 Hz and watch the my door violently chatter.



It only weighs 175 lbs  :o really fun to move.
a six shooter bass geetar !!!
Logged

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2011, 11:09:50 pm »

Quote
a six shooter bass geetar !!!

Its good for lazy players like me who hate switching hand positions.
Logged

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 04:44:22 pm »

What can you guys tell me about that setup?

Infra (nee "ELF") technology requires a SEALED loudspeaker enclosure.  Infra controller info can be found here:

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/what_is_infra.htm

I carried a Bag End system for years comprised of TA-15s and 18" subs without ELF. One venue we worked was using the Infra system or ELF, or whatever you wish to call it, and we never saw much difference between the two systems. Both had a similar sound quality and the extended low end of the ELF must have extended outside the room because we never heard it. What I did like about the Bag End system was the overall sound and low wattage requirements. The sound was very smooth, but unfortuneately 125db was pushing pretty hard on those cabinets. The ELF or INFRA systems ? Well, I can take or leave them and much like Bose they have their place.
 
The now infamous 551P-TAC, 2242H loaded subs are all that remain of these boxes.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

John Halliburton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 751
  • White pointy beard, knows zip...about chicken.
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2011, 12:14:16 pm »

Quote
a six shooter bass geetar !!!

Its good for lazy players like me who hate switching hand positions.

As long as you have large hands.   :P
The dual 12" BagEnd with the XLR-equipped ELF Integrator is designed for use down to the mid twenties. (The 8Hz device is RCAs and home theaters.) The nice thing about the dual 12" is that just about anybody you send out with it will be able to lift it.


Except the reality is that you can't hear it.  My old Servodrive Contrabasses eat those things for breakfast.  You want to go low, the Danley Sound Labs line is the way to go.


John
Logged

jabney (john abney)

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2011, 09:08:31 pm »


...
The dual 12" BagEnd with the XLR-equipped ELF Integrator is designed for use down to the mid twenties. (The 8Hz device is RCAs and home theaters.) The nice thing about the dual 12" is that just about anybody you send out with it will be able to lift it.


Except the reality is that you can't hear it.  My old Servodrive Contrabasses eat those things for breakfast.  You want to go low, the Danley Sound Labs line is the way to go.


John

You're saying you can't hear sounds in the mid 20s? I'm sorry to hear that. I mentioned the 8 cps parenthetically (that means as an aside in relation to my main posting) since there seemed to be some confusion on this topic. The 8 cps stuff is designed for rich owners of home theater systems, not live (i.e. pro) sound operators. I would have thought the mention of the RCA connectors (in the parenthetical comment) as opposed to XLRs would have made that clear, but obviously not.

So to summarize: Bag End pro subs with the ELF controller do not claim to reach 8 Cycles Per Second. Never have and (hopefully) never will. I'd even go so far as to suggest that any pro gear that does operate at 8 CPS is probably being used for torture (oops, make that 'enhanced interrogation') or brainwave entrainment of some sort.

Finally, the Servodrive Contrabass at 120 pounds is more than most people old enough to still say 'CPS' can safely lift. The Bag End dual 12 I mentioned in the posting weighs 74 pounds.

best,

john
Logged

John Halliburton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 751
  • White pointy beard, knows zip...about chicken.
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2011, 12:42:33 am »


...
The dual 12" BagEnd with the XLR-equipped ELF Integrator is designed for use down to the mid twenties. (The 8Hz device is RCAs and home theaters.) The nice thing about the dual 12" is that just about anybody you send out with it will be able to lift it.


Except the reality is that you can't hear it.  My old Servodrive Contrabasses eat those things for breakfast.  You want to go low, the Danley Sound Labs line is the way to go.


John

You're saying you can't hear sounds in the mid 20s? I'm sorry to hear that. I mentioned the 8 cps parenthetically (that means as an aside in relation to my main posting) since there seemed to be some confusion on this topic. The 8 cps stuff is designed for rich owners of home theater systems, not live (i.e. pro) sound operators. I would have thought the mention of the RCA connectors (in the parenthetical comment) as opposed to XLRs would have made that clear, but obviously not.

So to summarize: Bag End pro subs with the ELF controller do not claim to reach 8 Cycles Per Second. Never have and (hopefully) never will. I'd even go so far as to suggest that any pro gear that does operate at 8 CPS is probably being used for torture (oops, make that 'enhanced interrogation') or brainwave entrainment of some sort.

Finally, the Servodrive Contrabass at 120 pounds is more than most people old enough to still say 'CPS' can safely lift. The Bag End dual 12 I mentioned in the posting weighs 74 pounds.

best,

john

Let me clarify-they will outperform any of the Bag End ELF products.  Period.  I can and have heard reproduced signals down to 3hz.  I've mixed on a Bag End system that used the dual 12 sub/elf processor until I did them a favor and replaced it with a dual 15" custom vented design using Eminence drivers that trumped that box using the same amp, and no processor.  I've been at a club that uses the D18 for synth player who used a Contrabass as part of his stage rig-guess where the earth shattering low end was coming from?(hint-not from under the stage where the D18's were).

The Contrabass was(and probably still is) one of the best reproducers of elf made-and especially for it's size(under 8 cubic feet).

The Bag End hype of 8hz reproduction was marketing-it wasn't audible.

Oh, and from the product data sheet for the D12E-R:

"The D12E-R provides perfectly flat response down to 8 Hertz when used in conjunction
with the 8 Hertz Integrator. Designed for portable use, the D12E-R
includes handles, durable grille and a pole mount adapter on a
Ro-Tex painted enclosure."

I dunno, kind of sounds like they're claiming it to me.  Then of course, they refer you to a tech paper on their sensitivity:

-2db at 8hz, 95db sens. at 80hz, at 20hz, it's 75db, at 8hz, about 56hz.  The integrator can only overcome a little of this design's issues-the lack of linear excursion of the drivers being prime.

BTW, I use a handtruck, and the difference between moving a D12 or Contrabass is almost non existant.

Best regards,

John

Logged

Mika Filpus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2011, 03:40:04 pm »

Btw, has anyone changed elements on these? Other than original Bag Ends. I have a pair of S18E's needing new drivers.
More SPL is also welcome, if possible!

 
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Bag End Subwoofers
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2011, 03:40:04 pm »


Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.041 seconds with 25 queries.