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Author Topic: Th115 vs Deuce  (Read 11248 times)

Matt Harris

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 03:54:22 pm »

simpler yes, but not as pretty.  Very Happy
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Art Welter

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 04:57:11 pm »

Matt,

Your test of the TH115 looks far more similar to the published specs than the Bassmaxx Deuce do, at least in test one.

From what I see, doubling the Deuce does not seem to lower the LF corner as they claim, the whole spectrum goes up by 6 dB.

The TH115 does have a very slightly lower LF corner with two, although they don’t claim it in their specs IIRC.

The Deuce has a long horn, but a small mouth. By the looks of the response, it would take a lot more of them to get the LF corner that they claim. Interesting that the spec sheet says +/-3dB 40 to 140 HZ for two Deuce, then the frequency response graph below is for three cabs, and it shows +/-3 DB (6 dB variation) from 40-140.

Perhaps that test was with a wall and a floor...

Looks like the reality for two Deuce is more like +/- 6 dB (12dB range) from 40-140.

Curious as to what SMAART found as the path length difference between the two types of cabinets.
Could you look up the delay times between the two cabinets in the various tests?

Art Welter
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Matt Harris

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2009, 06:30:11 pm »

Actually the spec sheet is for 3 deuces. I own three and things get nicer from there, but i couldn't talk the wife into helping me pick another one up and i dont have a dolly at the house.
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Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2009, 06:36:07 pm »

I haven't been to the Bassmaxx site in a long time, but I do know that 3 Deuces (or 2 Trips) is the minimum number needed for a smooth response. I own both TH-115's and Trips, and I'll usually use my TH-115's for events needing a smaller sub array. The Bassmaxx subs really start to shine when you stack 4 or more cabinets together, just like most other horn-loaded subs.
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Art Welter

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2009, 07:51:05 pm »

Pascal,

I’m sure the Bassmax would shine with 4 units. The same could be said going from one of any sub to four of any sub, horn loaded, tapped horn, ported, sealed.

The point I made is the LF corner on a small mouth long horn sub should change from one to two, if they are acting like one larger mouth horn, or conforming to the published claims Bassmaxx made.

That is not happening with the two Deuce in the test that Matt posted.

Art Welter
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Matt Harris

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2009, 07:51:28 pm »

Yea, when I moved from a pair up to three Deuces there was a pretty big difference felt. In multiples im sure they are great. Im running a 3 man show though so having the TH-115's makes it much easier for a small setup. I can literally move 2 of them at the same time.
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Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2009, 12:31:24 am »

Hey Art,

I hear your point loud and clear. The point that I'm making is that the Deuces were not designed to be used with less than 3 cabinets in an array. With less than 3 cabinets, you are dealing with an insufficiently-sized horn mouth. And I'm sorry, but the same issue does not apply to tapped horns, ported, or sealed subs. Picking away at the response of an undersized array of horn-loaded subs just makes no sense to me.

I don't have the pics to prove it as my laptop recently died, but I have taken measurements of 2, 4 and 8 Trips and I can tell you that with 4 or more Trips the measurements are ruler-flat to below 40Hz with exception of a +3dB hump at 80Hz, and EQ-ing in a flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion.

All that being said I have no comment on the published specs on the Bassmaxx site except that I hope that any misconceptions or errors are quickly corrected.
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Michael Hedden Jr.

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2009, 07:43:55 am »

Matt Harris wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 00:51

. Im running a 3 man show though so having the TH-115's makes it much easier for a small setup. I can literally move 2 of them at the same time.


Matt represents the core customer we were thinking of with the TH115.  Big low bass out of a very manageable cabinet. From the ground level I can load and unload 115's by myself into my pickup. Also please notice per Matt's comparative measurements, the TH115 has 6dB more in the actual sub region i.e., below 50Hz.  Try getting that difference with your power amplifiers and see how big the hole in your wallet is!
For the folks wanting even more bass than the TH115 please stand by as there are two new models that will do that with spades, but you'll definitely need a ramp and something bigger than a shortbed pickup! Cool

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
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Tom Danley

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2009, 04:17:04 pm »

Hi Art, Pascal Matt,all

“Your test of the TH115 looks far more similar to the published specs /snip-”

Yes exactly the point of doing measurements in a standard way that another person can repeat, makes them useful.
You also asked about extension and horn mouth size.

I guess we should publish a curve for multiple units as the th115 looks nicer with more units too.    I asked Ivan to double check the set up and repeat it when he sent me the first measurements of 4X early  TH-115’s.  
Attached is the measure of one, two and four TH-115’s at 10 meters (-20dB re 1M) and driven at 100W (+20dB re 1W) into the nominal load equaling a conservative 1W1M system sensitivity.  It reaches it’s nominal maximum efficiency of about 50% at 109dB 1w1m.      Adding more units produces a further on axis increase in sensitivity but not from raising efficiency but increasing directivity via the shape of the array.

The lower cutoff one sees with a multiple low frequency horn is due to the path length being increased by having multiple close coupled horns.  While the area of the mouth is obviously increased, how the length is increased in less obvious.  
If one imagines a single large horn and keeps in mind that sound travels as a molecule to molecule change in force which travels at the speed of sound, one finds a curved wave is produced.
At the point the edge of the wave is contained by the final bit of the horn walls, one finds that the center of the wave is out in front of the horn.    The acoustic length is partly related to the size of the mouth and appears to be an added length of about ¾ of the mouth radius more or less.  Some geometry’s are less like a single horn and have less of an effect that the rule of thumb.

One place where the Tapped horn is different than regular horns in that they normally become “flat” when the radiation resistance is satisfied.    Adding more units produces a further on axis increase but not from raising efficiency but increasing forward directivity via the shape of the array.
All the regular bass horns I have made still had a drooped off low end even in large numbers.    The reason is that at the low corner of a bass horn, the length is a quarter wavelength and the horn driver doesn’t become efficient until the horn is a half wavelength or longer, in other words at about 2X the low corner F.



Pascal,

“flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion.”

If you look at the response curve for say the four TH-115’s, you can see that 25Hz is far below the system’s low corner and below where one could eq  to at least  the power level your running.     Normally for very high power use one would high pass the TH-115 around 30Hz.

If 25-30Hz were needed, then the TH-215 or possibly TH-50 would be a better bet as the raw (un-eq’d) efficiency down there is higher.
For example, at 30Hz, a single TH215 has a sensitivity that is about 10 dB higher than one  TH-115 (while in the midband, is a little less )
I would say try some TH-215’s if you want lower bass, you can compare the measured curves for the TH-115 and TH-215 and get a feel for how they would sound.
They are a little less sensitive than the th-115 but they go lower without eq..
They are nearly the same size as the duce but 20lb lighter and easy to move.
Best,
Tom
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Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Th115 vs Deuce
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2009, 08:08:46 pm »

Tom Danley wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 13:17

Pascal,

“flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion.”

If you look at the response curve for say the four TH-115’s, you can see that 25Hz is far below the system’s low corner and below where one could eq  to at least  the power level your running.     Normally for very high power use one would high pass the TH-115 around 30Hz.

First, I need to make a correction to my statement: I said "EQ-ing in a flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion." and that was incorrect. Forgive my memory but this all happened over 2 years ago. In fact I never tried to EQ in more low end on the TH-115's. What I did do was run a 25Hz high pass filter as recommended in the Danley literature and also by Ivan. With 1250 watts of power per cabinet, I lost several drivers to overexcursion in both blocks of 6 and 12 subs. My only point in mentioning this is that the Bassmaxx subs were capable of handling the added low end in sufficiently sized arrays, while with the TH-115's I don't really feel comfortable going much below 40Hz. Granted the drivers that broke were several years old.

There's much frequent comparison between the TH-115's and the Trips/Dueces, mostly because they're the two best-regarded underdog competitors to the mainstream manufacturers. It's kinda too bad that it's always the 2 little guys duking it out while the big guys avoid the fray and laugh all the way to the bank. I've worked with subs from all the big guys outside of D&B (who are certainly breaking the laws of physics if their supporters are to be believed) and none of those companies subs come close to either the TH-115 or the Trips/Deuces in sound quality or output.

For small shows I much prefer the TH-115's due to their small size and excellent response with smaller arrays, though I have used big blocks of them as well and they definitely perform well in those circumstances. The TH-115's have a very clear sound that sounds great with certain styles of music, but seem a little thin with others.

For bigger shows I think the Trips/Deuces are the best-sounding high-output subs on the market today, but you need to have the capabilities to handle the weight and size of them. I'm honestly surprised that there aren't more medium/large providers using them as they're the perfect rock and roll sub, with excellent rear rejection, and despite their weight, they are pretty easy to move around on their dolly plates. I can load and array my 350lb Trips by myself as long as my truck has a lift gate and I'm working on level ground. Plus they stack perfectly in front of a stage, taking up little space and leaving more room for seat or bodies.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing the new Danley monstrosities that Mike and Ivan keep talking about as I'm still shopping for some subs with raw low end response in the mid-high 20's for the new rig I'm designing. Hopefully they come with plenty of handles and good wheels Cool
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