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Author Topic: louder and lower  (Read 9548 times)

Iain_Macdonald

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 02:37:08 pm »

Ah!

It must be Manowar time again!

Iain.
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leon douven

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2009, 02:59:45 pm »

guy's,

ampeg 810E's are my favourite bass cabs, but that is because of their voice... in most cases 1 properly powered 810E is sufficient... but they have no low-end to speak of... that is usually no problem on bigger stages that have serious sidefils... cause they provide it.... more or less...

but we sometimes do some smaller (bar) gigs 200 / 400 people (no pa system at all) only bass, drums and vocals... (yes a weird setting) believe me that a serious sub than makes all the difference... it makes these small gigs sound bigger than they actually are... that does not mean that I play full blast all the time... just that layer of real sub underneath...  but for the solo spots... guess!!!  

regarding the frontal area of the cab... I find a frontal size of lets say a bassmaxx tripp unhandy..

best regards
Leon
www.drsjaak.nl







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Ivan Beaver

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 03:28:58 pm »

If you think that simply adding another bass cabinet, that will go lower to your Ampeg's, to your setup, you are actually going in the wrong direction.

You will have all sorts of interactions between the two.  Especially down low where you already have a problem.

Your best idea is to ask for a bass cabinet that will go lower than your current setup AND have the upper end needed for bass guitar.

OH, and you want it to go really loud Shocked Louder than a PAIR of 8x10 Ampegs?

That is quite a tall order.

You will need to take the approach of a SYSTEM, which includes a deep loud sub cabinet-along with a upper range cabinet-along with amps to power them (sounds like you already have that).

But the hardest thing you are going to have to come up with the is the alignment knowledge to get it to work together as a system.

Another question.  What sort of PA's do you run into in the little rooms that can keep up with the bass rig you are talking about?  OK you said NO PA-so what does the vocalist sing through-or does he just SHOUT! Laughing

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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

leon douven

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2009, 03:34:43 pm »

Ivan,

Somehow it seems you don't take my question serious, why is that? You drag labs around for the same reason as me... cous you love serious sub-bass. It does not matter if it is for a PA system or a bass guitar... I dont like the stupid remark...

Leon
www.drsjaak.nl



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Duncan McLennan

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 05:03:18 pm »

Leon, Ivan is trying to point out that through interactions between the sub you're looking to get, and the 8x10 cabinet, you are actually likely to achieve LESS bass in certain bandpasses because of cancellations.

You would be better of building a whole system that was meant to work together.
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dcm
Waterloo & London, Ontario

leon douven

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 05:29:01 pm »

there are no problems down low and no problems with alignment, just wondered if there is a sub with even more beef than a LAB...

for the gigs with no PA we use 8 x 15" JBL eon's for the vocals (depending on setting)

1 LAB is pretty capable with keeping up with 2 810E's for bass guitar... trust me... I know!  not many do...

I don't want another system... I need a mic in front of my 810 at the bigger gigs (where I don't use the sub) so I have more control over my sound... to be sure that at least a bit of my personal sound goes to the house system and ultimately to the audience. I fell on my face many times by trying a multiple speaker / mic system...

Jes sometimes he shouts... Razz



index.php/fa/20186/0/
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: louder and lower-BLEND!
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 05:48:09 pm »

leon douven wrote on Sun, 11 January 2009 15:34

Ivan,

Somehow it seems you don't take my question serious, why is that? You drag labs around for the same reason as me... cous you love serious sub-bass. It does not matter if it is for a PA system or a bass guitar... I dont like the stupid remark...

Leon
www.drsjaak.nl



I don't own, or have ever owned Lab subs.  So I don't drag them around.

Yes I love a really nice loud deep bass that pounds my guts to the point of being sick, but when the bass player has that coming off of his rig the whole sound just plain SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

But it HAS to be blended with the rest of the band!!!!!!!!!! In and of itself-deep loud bass is pretty worthless-except to try and prove a point.

TURN IT DOWN and BLEND!!!!!!!!!

Loud can have its place-but only if it is well balanced with the rest of the instruments.  When one person is "out of control" the overall sound suffers. Surprised

So when you don't have a PA how well do the EONS reproduce the kick drum?

So with the 8 EONS you have just the vocal mic(s) run through them and everybody else is to "fend for themselves" volume wise?

Why not put your money into subs for the PA and then EVERYBODY will benefit from them-instead of just you and then everybody else suffers. Rolling Eyes

You will not get much sympathy around here with a bass rig like you are talking about.

Most people are concerned with some sort of quality in the overall sound-no just quantity.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Rick Powell

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Re: louder and lower-BLEND!
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 06:07:40 pm »

Remember the Acoustic 360 FH bass cabs?  JP Jones used one with Led Zep, among others.  And I saw kenny aaronson with Rick Derringer in the 1970's with 4 C-V folded horns (2 on each side of the drum riser) and a miked Ampeg 8x10 on the top.

RP
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Rick Powell
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: louder and lower-BLEND!
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 06:48:53 pm »

Rick Powell wrote on Sun, 11 January 2009 18:07

Remember the Acoustic 360 FH bass cabs?  JP Jones used one with Led Zep, among others.  And I saw kenny aaronson with Rick Derringer in the 1970's with 4 C-V folded horns (2 on each side of the drum riser) and a miked Ampeg 8x10 on the top.

RP

In the old days, things were done differently.  Today we have much better technology-understanding etc.  That all results in better sound.

But just like the old days, if somebody is way to loud on stage, it makes for a bad sound overall.

But if volume/SPL is all you are about, then do "whatever".  

While science can really help out in that regard, just pileing it up and turning it up is "more fun". Laughing

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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

P.Cognitore

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Re: louder and lower
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 07:28:32 pm »

leon douven wrote on Sun, 11 January 2009 17:29

there are no problems down low and no problems with alignment, just wondered if there is a sub with even more beef than a LAB...

for the gigs with no PA we use 8 x 15" JBL eon's for the vocals (depending on setting)

I think I understand what you are trying to achieve, but I mostly agree with Ivan regarding the unintended effects this type of set-up has on the bands overall sound.

Couple of things:
  • If you run two different speakers (Ampeg 8x10" + another sub) with the same program material (your bass) the resulting sound will be less than optimal because the cabs may not sum the way you'd expect because of phase and other differences between them.
  • If you run a loud bass rig in small rooms where there is no PA for other instruments (other than vocals) you will totally stomp on the kick (and other) drums.  
  • As far as I know the JBL Eons are not designed to be arrayed.  I'm not sure how you're setting up those eight cabs but you are probably getting some serious comb filtering and other undesirable interactions no matter how they are deployed.

That all said, if these issues do not bother you, the band, the venue or the audience...then proceed as usual.  If you like the resulting sound then maybe that's all that matters.

I think the reason you're getting the responses that you are is because these forums are full of audio professionals who know the "right way" to do things.  And the situation you're describing is inherently flawed, and there probably is a better way...which is what some people have pointed out.

If you have tried four different high end subs (Earthquake, JBL 2x18", EV MTL4 and Lab sub) and have not gotten the response or volume that you desire it's probably because of adverse interactions because cabinets, and not because of flaws in the subs themselves.

Just to repeat, if you like the sound you're getting, then continue with what you'v been doing.  But just judging by your post here it seems that you may not be totally satisfied...otherwise you wouldn't have posted looking for something better.
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