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Author Topic: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP  (Read 9445 times)

Jeff Babcock

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2008, 02:07:39 pm »

Winston Gamble wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 13:07


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I call bull on some of those specs.  For instance compare SRX718 to LS608.  Both have an 18" driver.  The LS608 also is partially horn-loaded AND does not go as low, but the JBL is still claiming to have more output.  Sure.... Rolling Eyes  

I happen to trust Danley measurements since they are done by a 3rd party and they actually try to be accurate within the intended usable frequency range.  I'd bet some of the other numbers you see are from a frequency you'd rather not hear a subwoofer produce.

Cliff Adams

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 04:57:26 pm »

CROSSOVER POINT -- On paper the crossover point IS too high, but try it. In the 60s we had no subwoofers. In the 50s they had no bass! And it did not sound strange! When I got back into playing live I bought the 1990s esentials and began playing with them. My system sounded 'pretty' and got lots of compliments, one of which was, "Hmmm. Hollywood."

INTENSITY -- My db measurement was taken using a meter perched on my keyboard. I got a consistent stage volume of 90 - 108 (that's why I had earplugs made). But please, tell me what the intensity should be at say, 12 feet?

Ok, NOW tell me again why I need subwoofers. ...buncha cramped up waveforms looking for a way out...rumble... rumble...rumble...old people falling over each other trying to get out of the place...

Cliff
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Cliff Adams

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 05:01:04 pm »

Hmm, yes, you have a point there; someone said a person yelling is 108db. So, then, if -3db is half the volume, then members of my assumed huge crowd can be heard above the glorious 105db din if they shout? --Cliff
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Cliff Adams

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2008, 05:08:58 pm »

Andy's right - again - about the 'snap' coming from the top boxes. Guys, I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos. And disco sucks! Or did...

In other words, subwoofer freqs are effects, not music. Did they pass new regs while I was out of circulation? Is it now required that bands all sound like Genesis in Madison Square?
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Winston Gamble

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 05:12:05 pm »

Jeff Babcock wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 19:07

Winston Gamble wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 13:07


" target="_blank">http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/Sublist.jpg




I call bull on some of those specs.  For instance compare SRX718 to LS608.  Both have an 18" driver.  The LS608 also is partially horn-loaded AND does not go as low, but the JBL is still claiming to have more output.  Sure.... Rolling Eyes

I happen to trust Danley measurements since they are done by a 3rd party and they actually try to be accurate within the intended usable frequency range.  I'd bet some of the other numbers you see are from a frequency you'd rather not hear a subwoofer produce.


I think it's pretty healthy habit to question most specs you see.
However, seeing as I enjoy playing the devil's advocate I'll point out that the SRX is rated 800w continuous 1600w program and publishes a measured frequency response that pretty closely backs up its sensitivity rating. While Yorkville tells us that the 608 has a sensitivity of 103dB, they give us zero information as to how or where that rating was attained. As for it's power handling, we get "LF program power 800w". I probably should have noted that for my list in an attempt to have apples to apples comparisons, I normalized the SPL ratings to half space numbers in addition to program power. While I tried to be careful, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn of a mistake I made in collecting/calculating the numbers.
I've never measured what either sub will actually do at program power, but the math basicaly works and it makes sense to me that double the power might just make up for the efficiency gains of semi horn loading.

Having never heard any Yorkville products outside of an ancient pair if Traynor tops that one of the local Coffee House concert series uses, I included them in my consideration mostly based on their favorable reputation here on PSW despite their IMO inadequate spec sheets.

YMMV, Winston.

Winston Gamble

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 05:33:13 pm »

Cliff Adams wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 22:08

Andy's right - again - about the 'snap' coming from the top boxes. Guys, I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos. And disco sucks! Or did...

In other words, subwoofer freqs are effects, not music. Did they pass new regs while I was out of circulation? Is it now required that bands all sound like Genesis in Madison Square?


Man, you may be out of touch. Razz
 You need to start with what you are trying to accomplish with adding "subs". The band and I needthe subs we have to reproduce the low frequencies in the PA produced by the Bass guitar and kick drum. If your stage levels are that high, maybe you are already getting all you need out of your backline although I'm pretty sure your kick drum must be damn near inaudible out front without some low frequency reinforcement.

Some people here wouldn't really consider my "subs" to be true subs, but rather bass boxes since they pretty much are done at 45hz but that's all I really need for our application.

Just what are you looking to accomplish?  Winston

Art Welter

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2008, 06:18:31 pm »

Cliff,

-3 dB is half the power.

-10 dB SPL sounds half as loud.

Direct sound generally drops at 6 dB per doubling of distance, although in a reverberant room the overall sound may hardly drop at all from front to back.

The low E on a bass guitar is around 40 HZ, the low B is around 32 HZ. I don’t know how long you were “out of circulation”, but most folks consider those notes to be musical, not effects. The SX300 makes it down to 60 HZ,(-3dB) so there are still two octaves of music below them.

If your subs are going to be on the floor,(a good place, for them, and with a pole makes a good base for your SX300s) you really don’t want frequencies higher than about 100 HZ coming through them, as those frequencies will be muddied up by the assumed huge crowd dancing in front of them.
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Cliff Adams

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2008, 08:05:46 pm »

Ok. Suppose I put one Radian 18-inch speaker in as small a cabinet as specs will permit.

http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%202218-1.htm

I should hear solid freqs down to 30Hz and have a "sub" that weighs less than 60 lbs. Right? And a pair of them for under $1k.


CRITERIA?
In order of importance:
  • fits in the car
  • can be lifted without injury
  • sound fantastic
  • cost no more than necessary


Hey, I haven't been away THAT long.
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Art Welter

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2008, 09:36:23 pm »

Cliff,

If you use good plywood, like Baltic Birch, a box that size will weigh about 75 pounds with a 26 pound speaker in it. You might save 10 or 15 pounds with a lightweight type of wood, but at a reduction in the “sound fantastic” department.

Notice the frequency response of that Radian speaker in a 5.6 Cubic foot box, it is 10 dB down at 30 HZ from 60 HZ.

It has a small X-Max, which means the cone can’t move very far without the voice coil going out of the gap and the speaker distorting. According to the frequency chart, with 1000 watts input (+30 dB from 1 watt), it could only do 115 DB at 40 HZ. It probably would be exceeding it’s X-max long before 1000 watts, however. It’s a dog.

A speaker that sounds quite good, and costs less, is the Eminence Definimax 15 (4015LF) which has an F3 of 35 HZ in a 6.3 (gross) cubic foot box tuned to 39 HZ. It can do 125 dB with 600 watts. That means it would sound twice as loud at 40 HZ as the Radian using only 60% of the power.

In a 4.4 cubic foot box tuned to 40 HZ, it has an F3 of 40 HZ, and could do about 126 dB with 700 watts.

I have been using one for a drum monitor sub, (3.4 cubic feet tuned to 38 HZ) and it is super clean, detailed and solid to about 35 HZ.

Make sure you high pass any sub just below the F3 to keep frequencies below the box cut off from over excurding the cones. The high pass will also keep your subs sounding cleaner.

Art Welter
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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 03:14:35 pm »

     It sounds like your accustomed to hearing really distorted subwoofers.

    What DB scale do you use to measure band, what kind of music.

    Thats awfully Quiet for a live band with a drummer unless your playing Jazz Fusion.

    A couple of my bands were pushing 115-120dB on stage (Mostly Drummers pushing the levels).
 
   
Quote:

CRITERIA?
In order of importance:

   * fits in the car
   * can be lifted without injury
   * sound fantastic
   * cost no more than necessary



    Sorry I'm just a Danley Fan since I bought my Bass tech 7s years back (And built my own 22Hz Tapped horn).

    I don't know the cost but, I think the TH-mini or TH-28 from Danley sound labs is the only thing that is going to fit your criteria.  You might be able to get away with just 1 since the ting is so efficient.  You will not be able to make anything comparably small or light that will out perform them.  Not unless you reverse engineer his box and find a source for his drivers.

    There are only a few really great 18's out on the market, I don't think putting them in an undersized box will do you any favors.

    Your drums will benefit, keys will benefit and Bass.

    Instruments that wont benefit are vocals unless your (Bary White, or a beat boxer), acoustic guitar etc. So if have Aux buses available don't send to subs.

    A side note on the topic of bass guitar reproduction.

    Bass guitar does not have massively strong fundamental on its open strings, due to the practical placement of pickups.  The pickup proportionally less fundamental to 2nd harmonic ~10dB.

   So a standard E bass really needs a strong 80Hz to represent its open string, and a 5 string tuned to low B needs 60Hz to represent its 2nd Harmonic.

    Unless you have a bass with a pickup at the 12 Fret, you are going to need a hefty EQ curve to shift the spectral balance toward the fundamental (which sounds cool if you have a sub that will do it).

    I've built a tapped horn so I'm a believer, the concept works incredibly well.

    Good luck whatever you choose.  

Antone-
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