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Author Topic: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP  (Read 9522 times)

Cliff Adams

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subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« on: November 27, 2008, 07:13:43 am »

I am assembling a new PA rig: I have 4 EV Sx300s and a Crown Xti 2000 to drive them. Need a pair of subs that are not horrendously heavy! I want to maintain a healthy volume so that people can converse as they enjoy the music, BUT feel motivated to dance. The point is - I care!

Personally, I've always liked the sound of bass guitar speakers on a PA, because you get lots of warm tone. But many consumers/dancefloor pedestrians seem to want piled-up bass frequencies that loosen building mortar and chase older audience members - my beloved Baby Boomers - out of the joint.

Group is bass, drums, guitar, synth, boy singer, girl singer. Volume 110db-ish.

Let's do the physically impossible; have bass that snaps instead of flaps, with a pair of compact subs, with power for my synths and kick to support my vocalists. Suggestions?  Smile
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2008, 09:49:08 am »

Is budget an issue-or what did you have in mind price wise?

How heavy/big is to much?  What are you transporting them in? (car/trailer/box truck etc)

Do you need to be able to stack the rest of your system on top?

Just some basic questions that help give guidance to choices.  Very often one will dictate a proper choice for you, while there may be better cabinets for sonic performance, it may not fit your particular situation
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Cliff Adams

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 08:56:31 pm »

Budget certainly IS a consideration. If I blow the budget on subs then I won't get the new PreSonus Livesound 16.4.2.

As to size - I drive a Pacifica, so cargo space is limited. I am looking into a shelf style trailer that might hold 2 smaller subs.

As to weight - I bought theEV  SX300s because they weigh 32 lbs each. (Great sound is a given). Subs that weigh more than 70 lbs are not welcome! I am 59 years old, for goodness sake! (No, ROADIES are not the answer; I still have to store them at home between gigs).

Array - I was hoping to use EV's array brackets AND have the arrayed pairs up on poles. I asked EV if this was possible, but they just sent me a .pdf of the brackets that did not address using poles as well.

I can deal with these logistics; it's getting adequate bass that I am most concerned about. I mean, when you have a 2-way system crossed over at 200 and you shut off the top end, all you have left is 'bumpy brown noise' on the low side. Just how much of this audio lumpy gravy do we need??

I'm in pursuit of a beautiful musical sound. Say! Now, wouldn't THAT be different?

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Antone Atmarama Bajor

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 06:17:38 am »


    Uh only few "sub"ish things that have high output quality bass that I know of that weighs bellow 70lbs.

    That would be a Danley sound labs TH-mini or the TH-28.
Those hit the mark and are loud enough for live use.

    If you go up to ~100lbs there is the JTR growler.

    I don't think you should confuse bass guitar speakers with either a sub-woofer, or a PA speaker.

    And extra "warm" tone coloration is not really desirable in a PA speaker.  Added tone tends to clutter the sound.

    I think you maybe a little confused about what a sub-woofer is.  A true sub-woofer will not Snap, or flap.  Sub bass is by nature slow, and long wavelength.  It should be tight and controlled.

    I've never heard of anyone crossing a real sub-woofer over to mains at 200Hz.  Normally 80Hz is the more typical range.

    What sort of venues are you playing?

    The bands play 110dB at what distance?

    If you don't want lumpy response, you are going to need to optimize your system for the environment you are playing in.  If you have amazing ears, knowledge of sound, accoustics, EQ and support gear maybe you could attain magic sound without specialized test equipment.

    But if your playing at little dive bars and old boomy Vets halls.  Sometimes Less PA is more.

Antone-
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Marjan Milosevic

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2008, 07:30:04 am »

Single 18 bass reflex sub will do just fine.
Make it around 150-160 lit and you will be in that weight limit.
Do you already have an amp and crossover?

Ivan Beaver

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2008, 07:37:42 am »

But would it be loud enough for him?  That is where horns really start to shine.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Ivan Beaver

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2008, 07:48:42 am »

Regarding budget-everything else you provided is helpful, a NUMBER or range would be helpful.

When looking at a car (let's say not new)some people think 5K is high, while other think 25K is just fine.

Everybodys budget is different and their conception of an actual number.

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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Jeff Babcock

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2008, 10:12:08 am »

Cliff Adams wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 20:56



Subs that weigh more than 70 lbs are not welcome!


Well that removes the vast majority of your sub options.  I suggest Danley TH-Mini.

Quote:



I was hoping to use EV's array brackets AND have the arrayed pairs up on poles. I asked EV if this was possible, but they just sent me a .pdf of the brackets that did not address using poles as well.




Pick up a pole mount adapter that converts from 1 to 2.  Several manufacturers make them.

Quote:


.....have a 2-way system crossed over at 200



That seems to be a very strange and much too high crossover point.

Winston Gamble

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2008, 01:07:47 pm »

Decide what you want this sub to do and then order your priorities. When we were looking to upgrade, small size was my number one need due to trailer space followed by weight and then SPL. Cost didn't really make a difference for us unless it would have been signigicantly higher.

We do small venue live blues rock, so extended low frequency isn't as important for us as it could be for others. If you haven't already, learn how to decypher spec sheets and compare measured response charts when possible as one company's -3dB point or peak SPL will be figured differently than anothers.

Here's the list of options I wound up with for my criteria. Note that I roughly calculated the SPL figures back to a program power level when the spec sheets published peak power level figures. Later we decided to limit our choices to a max weight of 80lbs as I too carry an AARP card and the rest of the crew (the Band) is all female.

" target="_blank">http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/Sublist.jpg

We had rented the SRX previously and listened to the MRX in a store setting. The only other model that we demoed was the TH-Mini which was what I wanted as long as we like the sound of it and it lived up to it's specs. We are now very happy with our two TH-Mini's, but they wouldn't be the right subs for others I know.

Good luck choosing, Winston

PS. Does your "baby boomer" crowd really like it at 110dB? Where/how is that measured? Must be the Metal head boomers, Twisted Evil  95-98dBa at FOH in small venues is about our usual.

Andy Peters

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Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 01:28:19 pm »

Cliff Adams wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 05:13

I want to maintain a healthy volume so that people can converse as they enjoy the music

Volume 110db-ish.


I suppose this makes sense, if by "converse" you mean "scream into the ear of the person standing next to you."

Quote:

Let's do the physically impossible; have bass that snaps instead of flaps


Bass doesn't "snap." "Snap" comes from the top boxes.

-a
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