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Author Topic: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.  (Read 24048 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2008, 05:35:24 PM »

Thanks for gonging my thread,... Mad

JR
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Tom Danley

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2008, 05:36:22 PM »

Hi John

It is the rare and happy instance where one problem solves another problem, maybe like how EQ can fix magnitude and phase in a minimum phase problem.
I think to a degree this could be one of those solutions.

I am reminded of a fellow my Brother used to work with.
This guy was a Korean war Vet and while serving after the war met a nice Korean lady and they eventually married.   She bugged him about having her family come to America but he poo poo’d it for years citing “all the problems” in America.

After about 15 years, she won him over, popped for the airfare and they arranged to have his in-laws come.
They stayed at his house for three months and learned English, they had gotten jobs in fast food and laundry but after three months they had enough to rent a small apartment near by.
After six months, they arranged to have there 4 other kids come too.
Now, they all had jobs, all lived in one apartment for another few months.
Within a year they had bought a house and a business and the last time my bro heard, they had 14 businesses, each had there own houses and drove nice cars.

The fellow my brother worked with liked to tell this story because it shows how strongly personal perspective governs what each person see’s.    His point was that he saw nothing but problems and difficulties; they on the other hand, saw the land of opportunity and promise.  All it took was the opportunity, a lot of hard work and they made the American dream come true in the best sense.

I think one aspect that makes the illegal situation different is that while many of them do think of America as “the land of opportunity” it is not the same way and often don’t think of it as there home.
On the other hand sending money back home is a huge business and the major thrust of a significant number of them so it is a different mindset than the people in the story.
It is still the land of opportunity, but a different view of what that opportunity is.

Worth considering too is that the illegal’s usually are doing the hardest or most undesirable jobs of all and often for a lot less than normal.
Too often, employers say that they have to hire these folks because Americans (with a different perspective) simply won’t do it or might but for a lot more pay.
Clearly many businesses would fold “if” they had to pay Americans to do the work, too many jobs are simply too icky in the popular perspective to consider.

I am reminded of perspective again and how much that governs how a situation is interpreted.
In my case, my family has friends with a farm in Northern Wisconsin.  
A few years ago the fellow got sick and we went up to help out on the farm.  
My kids had spent a couple weeks each summer at “horse camp” there so they were keen to go too, even though it meant “chores” (I should remind them they had that view once).

At first, I found mucking out the 14 Stalls each morning to be pretty bad.  
To be clear, this is literally shoveling it up into a spreader, scraping it out and you needed to “dedicate” a pair of shoes to it if you know what I mean.
I kind of liked feeding and watering the animals right away because you could really tell the horses and the big stupid bull were appreciative,  everybody’s happy when you have food in your hand.    Funny thing, after a week or so, I started thinking that this is actually pretty cool, I never felt better or healthier.  When it was time to go home, I actually felt bad about leaving all that..  
My child hood experiences with horses that I recall were pretty much limited a number of medium and high speed rides on semi-tame farm variety (and my interest was motorcycles) so while exciting, I wasn’t interested in something with that little control.

But the thing is now;  “someday when I grow up”, I am going to have a couple horses and maybe a couple goats.  Funny thing how much ones perspective can change.

Anyway any idea that sounds promising should be investigated until a “show stopper” is found or not found.
Hopefully I was able to “pour the beer with a lot less foam” this time.
Best,
Tom Danley

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Steve Hurt

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2008, 05:36:49 PM »

Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 17:14

Charlie...

Me,too.  If you look reeeeal close at the demon it's............
Jack Nicholson!!!!



Or Willie Nelson!
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Dick Rees

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2008, 05:49:51 PM »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 16:35

Thanks for gonging my thread,... Mad

JR


This is the Basement....

I guess I was just buying time to try to find a way to express myself on a complex subject.  No easy answers here.  The cause and effect circular argument happens more often than not.  I resort to tangential "humor" to try to get outside the box.

I was taught to live within my means and not "go to work for the bank" as my grandfather put it.  I don't buy anything I can't pay for.  That said, I have been fortunate to almost always be of sufficient means for my needs.  Not everyone is so lucky.  

My reaction to your initial idea is positive.  Give someone a vested interest and watch them go.  In the Twin Cities there are inner city neighborhoods being raised out of neglect and put back together on a solid economic and community base by immigrant groups.  They do it with hard work, cooperation and sensible investments.  It is inspiring.

My idea of "national security" is a strong economy based on long term economic goals as opposed to the quick buck.  The most significant factor in long term economic health is arguably home ownership.  That's what makes the mortgage debacle so sad.  We are all worse off because of it.  Good luck to all.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2008, 06:38:10 PM »

  Hello,

  Tom, I agree that something must be done. I also agree that every individual is unique, their circumstances may be unique, that people must be given a chance to prove themselves.

 But, to answer J.R.'s response of the 90/10 formula, I believe you cannot have one without the other in this instance.

The End result should always be Paramount.But, If you do not Punish Society for the Breaking of Laws, (regardless of how the Laws are viewed), then, we must Change the Laws, or Eliminate the Laws.

 History shows that by refusing to Prosecute those who break Laws, these offenders will continue to disregard that Law, and will tend to disregard other Laws as well.

 (Illegal Aliens break how many laws?)

Our goal should not be to punish for the sake of punishing, but to seek fairness for everyone. (End Result)

 Should we let Illegals from Mexico,South and Central America have immunity by virtue of Proximity V/S say, those from Africa, Asia, Europe, that follow American Law and submit applications? Not an easy trip even with a boat!

 If we start talking Immunity, the Peoples of Mexico, and everything South will be Flooding across our Borders. It HAS happened in the past.

 I think that giving the Illegal Aliens Immunity is a slap to the rest of the Worlds people that want to make this Country their home.

What about our Neighbors to the North? If they want to Live and Work here, should we automatically allow them also? Or do they have to follow the Legal Route as they have been, the Laws that apply to the rest of the World?

 
Turning a blind eye to problems only leads to more problems. The Mortgage and Credit Card Account Problems are Big Problems, but they are not the Worst of our Problems.  

I respect Tom's JR's JR's Opinions (and anyone else's)

Cheers,

Hammer

 
 
 

 

 
   
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Tom Reid

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 06:44:15 PM »

Dang dude,

It seems like well rounded ideas come from well rounded engineers.

Maybe it comes from working for what you've got.

Whatever it is ...I have to agree with ya!
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 06:45:17 PM »

Steve Hurt wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 16:36

Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 17:14

Charlie...

Me,too.  If you look reeeeal close at the demon it's............
Jack Nicholson!!!!



Or Willie Nelson!



Steve,

  Willie Nelson.... quite fitting since he played the devil in a Western.

 Willie... He's old, but, do you think he's THAT old?


Come to think of it....  JACK played the Devil TOO!

Cheers,
Hammer
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Joseph Curran

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 07:10:26 PM »

Tom Danley wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 22:36

Hi John


Worth considering too is that the illegal’s usually are doing the hardest or most undesirable jobs of all and often for a lot less than normal.
Too often, employers say that they have to hire these folks because Americans (with a different perspective) simply won’t do it or might but for a lot more pay.
Clearly many businesses would fold “if” they had to pay Americans to do the work, too many jobs are simply too icky in the popular perspective to consider.






Exactly.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 07:14:38 PM »

Another tidbit in the immigration debate is that most western nations are reproducing at less than a replacement rate, their shrinking aging populations will be a major burden on their economies. Opening up immigration even more here would keep our economy growing and vital. More people are not necessarily a burden.

JR

PS: My concern is that some people don't appreciate religious humor, no matter how well intentioned, and it becomes a polarizing seed.  Not exactly like those cartoons in the newspapers in Denmark(?) .  I prefer to leave people to their own personal beliefs in that particular area. Don't ask don't tell...
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Dick Rees

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Re: solution for illegal immigrants and economy.
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 07:17:01 PM »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 18:14

religious humor,


Hopefully not another oxymoron.
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