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[Cody Hazelwood]

Hello,

I've been given the task of replacing the sound system for our City Council room.  The system that was in place sounded horrible, and now somebody broke in and stole it.  So, I'm looking to install a system that will sound good for speech ... that's it.  Music will never be played through this system.  I was thinking about some sort of very narrow center cluster over the front table, but the ceiling is really low.  Here are some pictures of the room and dimensions.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Front to back view:


Back to front view:


Drawing:

[Don Boone]

Ceiling speakers.

Don

[Ivan Beaver]

I would start by defining what mics (and where) will be used.  You will probably need some zoning to help feedback.

I would use a multizoned (depending on needs) ceiling speaker system.  The Atlas FAP42's would be a good choice.  Atlas also makes inexpensive 70V amps and mixers.

[Brad Weber]

Agreed, most systems like that would use distributed ceiling speakers, perhaps even a zoned system.

[Scott Hibbard]

Cody -

Install a few decent quality ceiling speakers, decent amp and limiter/compressor and you'll be off and running. I wouldn't consider a center cluster - ceiling is way too low and frankly that room is quite small.  

You need just a few ceiling speakers and could like get by with some decent low impendence speakers, not need for 70v here.

P.S. Looks like there are already some ceiling speakers in there - what are they for?  

ScottH

[Craig Hauber]

Use ceiling speakers as mentioned in previous posts, but also install a good DSP processor.  dbx zonepro, symetrix shure and ashly make good economical ones,  Biamp, BSS, Mediamatrix are more complex.
I've found that good mic equalization (and I'm assuming push-to-talk goosenecks or similar) really helps with the clarity and quality of the system.  
The bass&treble knobs that manufacturers have been putting on those basic PA type 70V amps for the last 80 years just aren't adequate.  Not to mention the autolevelling, compressing and anti-feedback modules in the DSP's goes a long way in making the system bulletproof.
Also things like volume knobs and mic-mute switches can be located easily near the official's seats (mic mute for the public's mic is important -it may have to be timed)Also the dsp makes record and distribution feeds and telephone interfacing much simpler.

Just some of my recommendations from experience.

[Cody Hazelwood]

Thanks for all of the quick replies.  The mics being used are Shure Cardioid Condenser Gooseneck mics with a push-to-talk button.  To answer another person's question, those speakers already in the ceiling were from a previous install that was far from adequate. The four speakers that are there sound like garbage.

What are the advantages to using a multi-zoned system?  Where would be the best place for me to learn about the 70 volt systems.  I've only worked with low-impedance speakers.

Thanks.

[Scott Hibbard]

Cody,

One of the advantages to a multi-zoned system is the ability to have independent control & configuration over each zone. You may want to control the volume of 4 speakers in a group independent from another zone.  This would be particularly useful for speakers closest to the mics where GBF might become an issue.

Check the study hall for 70v info.  One of the major selling points for 70v is the ability to install a great number of speakers than possible with low impedance speakers.  Example: If you have a 200 watt 70v amp, you can install 20 speakers tapped @ 8 watts leaving 40 watts for headroom (never run the amp dry).  Doing this with an 8 ohm speaker would allow for 8 speakers (assuming a properly sized 2 channel amp capable of 2 ohm loads).  Each has it's place but for your particular situation I see now need for a large distributed system.  

ScottH

[Brad Weber]

The zoning can also include matrix mixing or routing.  For example, you may have a zone that covers the council bench that does not include the council mics in that mix or has those mics at a lower level and another zone over a podium that is 'mix minus' the podium mic and so forth.  However, in a room that small it may be difficult to obtain significant separation between zones.

There are many fairly typical COuncil application functions and capabilities to also consider.  Like do they need to record the meetings?  Does the Chair/Mayor want to be able to override or mute all the mics, except maybe for their own?  Do they need a mic, perhaps wireless, for Q&A from the audience or to use out in front of the bench?  Do they ever have more than 50 people in the room or voluntarily want to incorporate ALS for the hearing impaired?  It may be that none of these capabilities are required but it may be better to ask and eliminate them than to assume they're not required.

While a 70V system may not be required, I don't see why you would not go that route.  There are advantages to constant voltage systems beyond just the ability to handle many speakers.  One of those other advantages is the ability to add or delete speakers without causing problems.  Just oversize the amplifier a bit and options like adding a speaker on a volume control in a Lobby or overflow area outside the Council Chambers or deleting a speaker if the room changes become quite easy to accommodate without having to worry about series/parallel wiring.

[Dick Rees]

And if you want to add in something like a Shure SCM410 or the 8 channel model you'll have nice mic gating plus automatic level control.  Works well for conferencing and helps with the EQ/tone considerations.  I'm not a big fan of switched mics and novice users.

[Don Boone]

My base system for simple council rooms is AKG short shotguns on GN goosenecks plugged into Astatic PTT bases (set for push to mute) into SCM auto mixers with Shure DFR for EQ and just a touch of compression/limiting.

Don

[Dick Rees]

Don Boone wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 11:56

My base system for simple council rooms is AKG short shotguns on GN goosenecks plugged into Astatic PTT bases (set for push to mute) into SCM auto mixers with Shure DFR for EQ and just a touch of compression/limiting. Don

Are you using the AKG CK80 capsule?  This is almost the exact setup I use for conferencing and/or live radio public forums except that I got a deal on Audio-Technica bases.

[Brad Weber]

Don Boone wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 12:56

My base system for simple council rooms is AKG short shotguns on GN goosenecks plugged into Astatic PTT bases (set for push to mute) into SCM auto mixers with Shure DFR for EQ and just a touch of compression/limiting.

Similar here except for using the Audio-Technica mini shotguns and the Lectrosonics AM8 gain sharing automixer.

[Cody Hazelwood]

Okay, I've done some research, and I'm going to use three zones. One over council members, one of the audience, and one to the TV station.  I think I like the Symetrix 780 DSP, but I'm having trouble locating one to purchase.  Anybody know a store that carries them? (I can't buy used cause insurance is paying for it)  I haven't made up my mind on amp choices yet.  Anybody have any strong suggestions?  For speakers I'm going to go with the Atlas FAP42's.  Would 8 of those be enough? (I was thinking 6 for audience and 2 over the council people).

[Jason Lavoie]

the 780 was just introduced at Infocomm, so it may not be available everywhere yet.
when the 760 came out there was a decent delay before we could actually get them.

Jason

[Cody Hazelwood]

Okay everybody, here's what I've decided:

3 Peavey S-4 Auto Mixers
1 DBX 220i DSP
6 Atlas FAP42
1 Samson 240w Zone Amp

My plan is to run the 11 mics we use into the auto mixers, apply slight compression to each mic and the needed eq, and then send that to the DBX, where I'll use the parametric eq as needed and enable the AFS on the speakers and then send a separately processed signal to the TV cameras.

Any suggestions before I purchase this stuff?

I looked at all of the Zone DSP's I could find, and the Symetrix 780 is the only one I could get to work for my needs (I think) and I couldn't find it anywhere.  Does anybody have any experience with these Peavey Automixers?

[Dave Hudzik]

remember to have a nice gooseneck mic for each individual seat at the chamber table... especially if you are going to TV for public access, you will be very unsatisfied with the results other wise.

Good EQ on each mic channel as well to be able to handle some HPF and LPF that you may need to keep room noise down for broadcast