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Author Topic: Mini Subs  (Read 11784 times)

Silas Pradetto

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Mini Subs
« on: June 20, 2008, 01:10:25 pm »

I'm looking for some mini subs to use when LAB subs aren't practical. I'm considering Growlers, TH-Minis, and anything else. Whatever I get doesn't have to go insanely loud, but I would like it to get to 40Hz or so. Coupling of multiples is a plus like with the horn subs mentioned. Front loaded is fine too.

I built a small double LAB12 ported box and it sounds more like a car sub...not nearly loud enough but plenty low.
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George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 01:35:16 pm »

I haven't heard these Acoupower subs, but the specs on the website are impressive. This is a small company that designs and makes the drivers, and they do seem very well designed. They can also design, build, and test the cabinet for you. Some of their cabinets are really small, although they are not light, the driver alone weighs about 44 lb.

http://www.acoupower.com/15a.php

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 04:38:51 pm »

THe big difference between that cabinet and the other mentioned by the OP is that the sensitivity is 10dB lower.  That is HUGE and really hard to makeup.

It may be fine for Home Theatre, but not for live use.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Silas Pradetto

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 08:29:36 pm »

Yeah, I already confirmed that LAB12 woofers front loaded aren't loud enough.
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George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 11:52:06 pm »

I think Ivan was saying the Acoupower box was lower in sensitivity than the dual LAB12 driver box, having a sensitivity of 90 dB SPL for 1 watt at 1 meter in a half space measurement. That is for the 15 inch driver in a 2.6 cu ft sealed box. Good point.

Acoupower does have a graph for a 100-103 dB SPL @ 1 m half space box on their website, but it is a dual 18" driver large box that probably weighs close to 200 lb, not what the OP is looking for.
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Winston Gamble

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 12:15:06 pm »

We just did a quick demo with the TH Mini last Thursday for our small band PA. Use is for small venue live band blues/rock music. Most all of our larger gigs have PA provided. We have been using 2 Tuba 24's which were fine for the amount invested, but we have grown tired of the uneven frequency response they produce without a larger block of cabinets.

We have rented SRX subs in the past when concerned about the Tuba's not being enough for the gig and they were fine, but for replacement subs one of our main criteria is small size. My goal is to eventually get everything into our 5x10 trailer. (Not quite there yet, but getting closer.) I pretty much narrowed our choice down to the TH Mini as long as they sounded as good as the specs promised. While we only used recorded music for the demo, the band voted to buy them after about 3 minutes. They are increadibly small and put out an amazing level. True they don't go quite as low as the growler or other smallish 18" subs, but the sound is very powerful and has a musical/monitor quality to it and it is three cubic feet smaller than the Growler. If small is a large consideration for you, I can't imagine not being happy with the TH Mini.

I'm ordering two today and will update after some gigs.
Winston

Michael Hedden Jr.

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 08:54:49 am »

Silas Pradetto wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 18:10

I'm looking for some mini subs to use when LAB subs aren't practical. I'm considering Growlers, TH-Minis, and anything else. Whatever I get doesn't have to go insanely loud, but I would like it to get to 40Hz or so. Coupling of multiples is a plus like with the horn subs mentioned. Front loaded is fine too.

I built a small double LAB12 ported box and it sounds more like a car sub...not nearly loud enough but plenty low.


Don't know if this is a post violation and it may get pulled off but we introduced the CS30 at the Infocomm show that has a sensitivity of 95dB @ 33Hz.  The data is up on the website in our brochure which you can download but it impressed all that heard it.  It won't get as loud as the Mini at 50 Hz but it will get much louder than the Mini at 33-40 Hz.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
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George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 04:15:32 pm »

I didn't see the graphs and detailed specs for the CS30 or the SH-Mini on the Danley website. Did I miss something?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 05:25:41 pm »

TH-mini     http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%20MINI%20Spec%20Sheet. PDF

The CS30 was up there, but there is some "construction" going on on the website.

Here is a screen capture for 2.83V 1M  (actually 28.3V/10M)
index.php/fa/16519/0/
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 10:42:32 pm »

Thanks, Ivan. Looks like the CS30 might work well with a pair of SH100s, which roll off below 70 Hz. That could make a really tiny PA with a full range response down reasonably flat down to 33 Hz. And it would fit in my car!

Any FR graphs available for the SH-Mini? I still get a "page not found" message when I look for it.

Thinking about an even smaller super-tiny nano-PA (NYC bars that fit 40 people SRO), it looks like the TH-Mini might be a bit much for 2 SH-Minis, and the CS30 rolls off way below the stated 125 Hz LF rolloff for the SH-mini. Have you tried the SH-mini as an FOH PA, if so, what would you recommend for a sub for the SH-Mini?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2008, 08:01:15 am »

Here is the SH mini response.

The big difference between it and the SH100-besides physical size and pattern control, is it has a lower sensitivity and not as much low end as the SH100.

The SH mini was designed more as a fill type loudpspeaker-underbalcony, stage lip, "splash" for small areas and a really small floor wedge.

It could be used as a main for smaller gigs, but that is not the "intended" usage.

I have used it with the CS30 for "listening while I work late" applications and it gets quite loud-especially for it's size.

For a portable situation, I would go with the SH100's.  More available output.  There are quite a few people traveling around with SH100's and various subs doing some quite large rooms (500-1000 seats) very well-not rock and roll however.

It was one of the more well recieved products that Danley had at Infocomm.  Ie people waying WOW, I can't believe that much sound is coming out of that box.
index.php/fa/16525/0/
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Michael Young

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2008, 11:52:31 pm »

Ivan-
I'm VERY interested in the new CS30s. They seem to be the ideal product for my needs. I am a Mobile DJ...but I'm also very concerned with Quality of sound as well as quantity.
Do you have a suggested retail price...or an anticipated selling price for the CS30?
I'd probably want 4, so that i could use 2, 3 or 4 depending on the size of the venue and type of event (teenage kids love bass...and i want it to be accurate!!!!)

Thanks!
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Michael Hedden Jr.

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2008, 11:43:19 am »

Michael Young wrote on Sat, 28 June 2008 04:52

Ivan-
I'm VERY interested in the new CS30s. They seem to be the ideal product for my needs. I am a Mobile DJ...but I'm also very concerned with Quality of sound as well as quantity.
Do you have a suggested retail price...or an anticipated selling price for the CS30?
I'd probably want 4, so that i could use 2, 3 or 4 depending on the size of the venue and type of event (teenage kids love bass...and i want it to be accurate!!!!)

Thanks!


The CS30 is still being worked through final design as we are going to make the cabinet dimensions essentially match that of the THmini but the retail price will be around $900-1000.
With the same frontal dimensions you can actually mix and match using the THmini's higher sensitivity and power handling at 45-50Hz for rock gigs and the CS30's higher sensitivity at 33 Hz for gigs requiring that low frequency extension. A combination of the two subs gets you the best of both worlds, deep and loud, with tremendous flexibility for your inventory dollars and still everything fits inside a compact sedan.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
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Grant Conklin

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 02:00:22 am »

Michael-
How do you recommend these 2 working together?  Do you suggest significant overlap of frequencies, or that they cover separate ranges?  And if they overlap, what is the effect on the overall output of the combo?  
Thanks,
Grant
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Michael Hedden Jr.

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2008, 09:31:18 am »

Grant Conklin wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 07:00

Michael-
How do you recommend these 2 working together?  Do you suggest significant overlap of frequencies, or that they cover separate ranges?  And if they overlap, what is the effect on the overall output of the combo?  
Thanks,
Grant

Hey Grant,
As with many things the answer is it depends.  However all things considered and due to low frequency extension differences you would want to have different high pass filters for each sub.  The mini is close to -10 dB off the CS30 in the 30-40 Hz range. So based on program material if you are driving the subs off an aux the mini would gag trying to get more very low frequency information.  By using separate signal processing you could also take advantage in the above 50 Hz range where the THmini not only has higher sensitivity but also higher power handling than the CS30 in the same frequency range.  On the low pass side of the equation there would not be much interaction if any due to the differences in sensitivity and frequency response.  As with anything you'd want to make sure the cabinets spacing maintained preferably 1/4 wavelength spacing and never 1/2 wavelength spacing for the pass bands of concern.

Thanks,

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

P.S.
I'd encourage everyone at least in the US to pause today and reflect on those who came before us and in many cases paid the ultimate price for the freedoms we now enjoy.  Happy 4th of July!
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Silas Pradetto

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2008, 09:27:17 pm »

There are no phase/delay differences to worry about?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2008, 09:39:15 pm »

Silas Pradetto wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 21:27

There are no phase/delay differences to worry about?

You would need to "align" the two subs as they are very different designs.  One is a horn loaded (albeit a tapped horn) and the other is front loaded (albeit a bandpass design).

The "exact" alignment would depend on the particular filter points used (freq), type slopes (butterworth-LR etc) and amplitude of the different bands-(as they have different sensitivities and power handling).  

This could vary greatly depending on what type of alignment you want-flat response or "low freq enhancement".
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Michael Young

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2008, 03:10:25 pm »

OK....so after doing a little math, and inspecting the response curves and efficiencies more carefully, I've come up with the following:

For me...the mobile DJ who wants to faithfully reproduce the really low frequencies in today's Pop music (down as low as 30 hz) I think I'd be best served with 1 TH mini handling the 60 hz to 120 hz range, and either two or three CS30s handling 30 hz to 60hz range. The number of CS30s would depend on several factors, including size & type of venue, how much output was needed, and of course how much of that super low frequency music I'd be playing.

If you take into account the modified fletcher munson loudness curves, then I should be just about right, since I'll need an extra few DBs down really low to keep the system "sounding" flat to 30hz.

I'd then have 4 equal size boxes that would quite literally blow away anything of comparable size.

Ivan- any updates on availability of the CS30? and...do you think you could set up a pair of CS30s and a TH mini together and determine the best delay settings when they are clustered together?

Thanks in advance!
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2008, 05:23:58 pm »

They should be shipping by the end of next week or just there after, 7-18 or so.

I only have the prototype right now. I will do a "setup" and measure response when they come in and I get some time  Laughing .

A less expensive way would be to use a TH215 to get down to 30Hz. However you now have a much harder to move around (for the portable DJ) cabinet, with an overall smaller package.  1 215 vs 4 TH mini/CS30 size cabinets.  You would then have move output level as well.

But 3 CS30's and a TH mini would make a pretty awsome sounding package.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2008, 05:35:26 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 14:23

A less expensive way would be to use a TH215 to get down to 30Hz. However you now have a much harder to move around (for the portable DJ) cabinet, with an overall smaller package.  1 215 vs 4 TH mini/CS30 size cabinets.  You would then have move output level as well.

But 3 CS30's and a TH mini would make a pretty awsome sounding package.

I already have a boat-load of heavy hard-to-move subwoofers, and sometimes I really wish I had some small subs that I could throw in the back of my car. When you need a helper and a truck to move your gear, it doesn't end up being less expensive. The Mini/C30 combo looks real good to me though I definitely want to test-drive the Mini before I buy one. Road Test?  Very Happy
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Winston Gamble

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 06:04:28 pm »

The one they sent for me to demo might still be here in Salt Lake City....

Winston

Jeff Permanian

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Re: Mini Subs
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2008, 09:11:01 pm »

Winston Gamble wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 17:04

 Salt Lake City.


A complete JTR rig will be in your area Aug 8-9 at the Blind Dog Blues Festival.

http://www.blinddogbluesfestivals.com/
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