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[Bob Leonard]

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 18:49

Bob Leonard wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 15:02 Just a quick point. There are 50 touring acts using the Heils now representing all types of genre, from Joan Baez to the Eagles. There aren't any complaints about wash, or if there are I have not heard about them yet. I wonder what they're using as a formula for success..... Guess I'll have to find out tonight. Umm, well, for starters ... could the formula simply be that lots of these bands are on IEMs, or have plexi shields in front of the drums, or the amps are "far enough" from the vocal position to not be a problem? IOW, strictly-controlled stage volume? I don't expect Joan Baez to have rock-n-roll stage volumes. Quote: My first thought, having tested most of the mics mentioned against the Heils, proved to me the Heils are more sensitive, more articulate, and have a much wider frequency response than the mics mentioned. You're definitely going to hear sound you have not heard in the past. And all of that is true ... re-read my initia post in this thread where I mention that my wife said "that one (PR22) sounds like you, and the other one (SM58) sounds like you're speaking through a microphone." Quote: Have you thought to stop and ask yourself why the GBF of the Heils is greater than other mics, IT IS NOT. NO EFFIN' WAY. Let me clarify: I can get usable GBF.  But GBF is a separate issue from stage wash. So when a musician tells me, "I'm getting a lot of stage sound in my wedge and it just sounds loud up here," that's a problem. And when I push up a vocal in the house and get lots of guitar amp as a bonus, that's a problem. So I'd rather deal with the "sonic imperfections" of a supercardioid mic. -a (edit: clarification.)

Andy,
You're one of the few people I know whose opinion I will not question. You are correct in all that you have stated, and I thank you for pointing out again that the sound quality of the Heils is superior to most/many.

I will however question the GBF vs. 90% of the mics I have tested the Heils against. I am constantly able to acheive higher levels of GBF with the Heils with all things equal. Enough of that though because we're both smart enough and experienced enough to know there will never be one mic that can do everything.

[Tim McCulloch]

Fine and dandy, Bob... but is there any word about a super-cardioid in the 20 or 30 series?

Tim Mc

[Tim Padrick]

Gain before feedback is dandy, but it does one little good if the vocalist has company in the microphone.  The problem that I had was actually a gain before feedback issue - the wash from the  room was making the mic unstable, and it took a lot of (cheapo, admittedly) EQ to make it work marginally well (which of course did not do the sound any favors).  When I stuck a 58 in the PR22s place, it sounded a lot worse, but I no longer had to constantly finesse the fader to keep the vocal on top and stable on the louder songs.  A friend loves the sound of the PR22, but often cannot use it - not for GBF per say, but owing to hearing the room in the mic with the vocalist (he uses much better wedges than I was using).

[John Chiara]

Hey Bob, my setup the other night was telling..the opening band..which I mixed and used a 35 and 2 22's for..used all the same gear in the same place as the headliner..which used a B57 and 58's...there was way less wash through the vocal mics..and the lead singer was off the mic alot but I didn't hear the drums and stuff I heard during the first band.

[bo putnam]

Bob Leonard wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 15:02

Andy, ...  You are correct in all that you have stated...

Yup.  I too have these experiences with PR22's, and have compared notes with Andy.  

Like others here, we've had issues when we take the stage and I slip in a few PR22's on vocals.  With the PR22's I pretty much have bliss at FOH, but the monitorguy suddenly develops new sweat beads - GBF is a bit trickier than with the conventional SM58's.  My lead vocal/guitar likes a really hot mix, which exacerbates the problem, and with the PR22 4kHz (and its harmonics to a lesser degree) typically presents a problem.  When I'm working foldback I prepare for it, but this invariably catches the festival guys - takes a bit more attention to get right.  At some events, if time is slipping I just skip using any of my mics, even tho' I'd prefer to be working the PR22's.  

I have noticed stage wash too, although my hassle with it seems dependent on ceiling height.  And, my guitar player is so loud, any mic gets washed pretty bad.

All-in-all, I really like the PR22's and use them whenever I can.  They are different than SM58's, but we should expect that.  

[Bob Leonard]

bo putnam wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 20:47

Bob Leonard wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 15:02 Andy, ...  You are correct in all that you have stated... Yup.  I too have these experiences with PR22's, and have compared notes with Andy.   Like others here, we've had issues when we take the stage and I slip in a few PR22's on vocals.  With the PR22's I pretty much have bliss at FOH, but the monitorguy suddenly develops new sweat beads - GBF is a bit trickier than with the conventional SM58's.  My lead vocal/guitar likes a really hot mix, which exacerbates the problem, and with the PR22 4kHz (and its harmonics to a lesser degree) typically presents a problem.  When I'm working foldback I prepare for it, but this invariably catches the festival guys - takes a bit more attention to get right.  At some events, if time is slipping I just skip using any of my mics, even tho' I'd prefer to be working the PR22's.   I have noticed stage wash too, although my hassle with it seems dependent on ceiling height.  And, my guitar player is so loud, any mic gets washed pretty bad. All-in-all, I really like the PR22's and use them whenever I can.  They are different than SM58's, but we should expect that.

Bo,
I worked a stage the other day that was 35'x20' deep. It was like playing in a box. The wash problem reared it's ugly head, but due to the reflected sound from the hard plaster walls and hard plaster ceiling surrounding us. Keep in mind that we had 9 Heils open on stage, and that theory dictates a 3db loss for each additional open mic. The cure for us was to actually move the vocal line back, and the backline up.  WTF? Well it worked almost as if the reflected sound hit the wall and bounced back after getting past the vocal line, which by the way was 3ea. PR-22s and a PR-35 on the money channel. I think as time goes by most of us will adjust to the Heil line will have to be treated much differently than those ball mics we're all used to. I think a lot of that is understanding the Heils don't suffer from a loss in response at any specific frequency and that everything presented to the mic will be picked up and replicated. Just my thought.

[Dick Rees]

While I have not yet had the opportunity to use the Heil mics in a live sound application I did take the time to go to the nearest GC and A/B them with some "industry standard" mics which I have used.  All I could do was listen to the various mics soloed into headphones.  The "reach" of the Heil dynamics was much more akin to that of a condenser in that I could hear clearly WAY into the remote recesses of the store....with incredible fidelity.

This leads me to expect to need to address some of the issues raised here regarding stage wash and GBF.  That is, when I finally get them in the budget....which I intend to do.  I expect the same adjustments that I've had to make in using the AT Artist Elite series premium vocal mics.

[Winston Gamble]

Dick Rees wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 17:57

While I have not yet had the opportunity to use the Heil mics in a live sound application I did take the time to go to the nearest GC and A/B them with some "industry standard" mics which I have used.  All I could do was listen to the various mics soloed into headphones.  The "reach" of the Heil dynamics was much more akin to that of a condenser in that I could hear clearly WAY into the remote recesses of the store....with incredible fidelity. This leads me to expect to need to address some of the issues raised here regarding stage wash and GBF.  That is, when I finally get them in the budget....which I intend to do.  I expect the same adjustments that I've had to make in using the AT Artist Elite series premium vocal mics.

We have a couple of different AE series mics on our front line. I don't find myself making many adjustments, what is it you're finding you need to change? Just curious.
I picked up a PR22 for our lead singer/rhythm guitar/harmonica player for use on her harmonica. The main driver was for its lack of proximity effect. I too have noticed a wider pattern on it, but for our application that is working mostly to my advantage. I will echo the comment that the mic sounds the most like the actual voice of whoever gets on it. When our other lead singer first tried it out we all commented on how much it sounded like her. Which was exactly what she didn't like about it. She prefers the thicker or smoky sound of her voice with her AT AE series mic.

Winston.

[Bob Leonard]

Winston Gamble wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 14:21

Dick Rees wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 17:57 While I have not yet had the opportunity to use the Heil mics in a live sound application I did take the time to go to the nearest GC and A/B them with some "industry standard" mics which I have used.  All I could do was listen to the various mics soloed into headphones.  The "reach" of the Heil dynamics was much more akin to that of a condenser in that I could hear clearly WAY into the remote recesses of the store....with incredible fidelity. This leads me to expect to need to address some of the issues raised here regarding stage wash and GBF.  That is, when I finally get them in the budget....which I intend to do.  I expect the same adjustments that I've had to make in using the AT Artist Elite series premium vocal mics. We have a couple of different AE series mics on our front line. I don't find myself making many adjustments, what is it you're finding you need to change? Just curious. I picked up a PR22 for our lead singer/rhythm guitar/harmonica player for use on her harmonica. The main driver was for its lack of proximity effect. I too have noticed a wider pattern on it, but for our application that is working mostly to my advantage. I will echo the comment that the mic sounds the most like the actual voice of whoever gets on it. When our other lead singer first tried it out we all commented on how much it sounded like her. Which was exactly what she didn't like about it. She prefers the thicker or smoky sound of her voice with her AT AE series mic. Winston.

What she likes is the proximity effect of the mic as EQ'd. If you want her to have good thick vocals put her behind a PR-35.

[Dick Rees]

Winston....

In re adjustments for AT AE series mics it's pretty much what has been mentioned in other posts:

Running them a little cool on the input so as to try to tighten up the pattern a bit and:

a little more work on EQ'ing at the monitor desk.

As usual the mic technique of the vocalist figures heavily into the equation.  I don't do that much straight out rock, so the premium vox mics get used for jazz vocalists and world music bands.  Most often they are hand held, not stand mounted and properly worked.