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[Donnie Evans]

I have a potential large investor willing to help get a decent sized rig started.  I've been using Yorkville elite tops and subs (2 each) for a while now for our band, and love them.  I'd like to stick with yorkville for my main FOH.  I've been looking at something like 6-8 tops and 6-8 subs.  I've heard rave reviews on the U15's and LS1208's and that's probably my #1 choice, but being there is minimal price difference, how do these compare with the TX series?  These are my options for yorkville:

U15's over LS1208's
TX4's over LS1208's
TX4's over TX9S's

All else aside, with a decent sized rig, which would be more susceptible to rider friendliness?  I've thought about SRX also, but don't really want to go with them because of price and the amount of power they want, but if they are that much more widely accepted, I may go that route.  Any comments are appreciated.

[Josh Oswald]

I'm be willing to bet your not going to see any requests for U15's on any riders; maybe a few for TX4/TX9's, but you probably won't see anything excluding them either. I have a pair of U15's installed our youth facility on our church campus and have 6 CU15's on order for our main sanctuary. In short, i really, really like U15. I went the way of the TH115 for subs though. In short, they rock.

Some random thoughts/questions...
I think you'd be safe with either one. Does a 3-way design interest you or are you ok with a 2-way box? They have the same max spl so and are both 60 degrees(one being 60 conical and one 60x40). The TX4 will require less amp horsepower then the U15 and is an 8 ohm box; that might help if you need to put a few TX4's per amp channel and still not drop below 4 ohms. The U15 is going to have pattern control to a lower frequency.

The LS1208 was the fan favorite at Evan's Sub Listening Party last year and is the current box of the many of the forum regulars. It's got to be doing something right. Both the LS1208 and the TX9 are beasts though. The LS1208 will also make more noise on less power.

Keep us posted.

Oh, and tell your potentially large investor, that if he's got any dough left over once your done with him, that I'm next in line.

Josh

[Donnie Evans]

Josh Oswald wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 08:50

Keep us posted. Oh, and tell your potentially large investor, that if he's got any dough left over once your done with him, that I'm next in line. Josh

Hah...it's my dad.  Trust me, if there's any left....scracth that... there won't be.

[Shane Presley]

Hey there... I have 6 TX-4's per side over 4 SW1000's(elite 2 x 18 front loaded)per side ... I wish I had the TX-9's , but as someone stated earlier they are power pigs, so I opt'd for 2 x the cabinets for the price of one TX-9.  If I were you I would look for a more rider friendly brand. As stupid as that sounds (cause I am a complete fan of the yorkville brand), but when that rider comes in, more often than not, yorkville is NOT on the "will use" list, if they even know what it is at all...(american touring guys often ask) So I took the hit an bought into the EAW KF730 array.  I still use my elite bottoms with the tops, guess what the BE commented on this past weekend, and I quote... you should really get rid of those "yorkville" bottoms...   So if you wanted any advice about buying rider friendly gear, go with the usual suspects... EAW, JBL, D&B, MEYER, V-dosc...etc...
FYI - 2 year unlimited yorkville warranty does NOT apply to the TX line, because they are treating the line, like it's a high-end race car, brought to the edge of it's performance... I found this out the hard way after a BE beat up the rig pretty good, and I lost a 15"... but to it's testiment, that's all i've lost in 6 years...

[Pat Cognitore]

Donnie Evans wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 08:25

Any comments are appreciated.

How are you thinking of arraying the U15s if you have 3 or 4 per side?  It just seems with the 60* conical dispersion horn you'll get a ton of interference between elements unless you splay them very wide (do you need 180* to 240* horizontal coverage?) and/or splay them vertically (are they even designed for this?).  Tight-packing and stacking them up so that you get interference may defeat the benefits of having those Unity horns, if you know what I mean.  

Also, if you feel you need the SPL of 3 or 4 U15s per side then maybe you should be looking at a more powerful box.  I know you said you want to stick with Yorkville (I like the brand, too) but four Community SLS960s will be around the same price as eight U15s and will probably be louder and array better.  Or spend a little bit more money (or look for some used boxes) and get some rider-friendly EAW KF650s.

I've only heard the TX4 stacked two per side and they sounded alright, can't really comment more than that.

[Jeff Babcock]

What sort of riders are you seeing Donnie?  If you're mostly doing local shows and not many touring acts it really won't matter what name is on the box as long as it sounds good.

However, if you intend to provide for larger shows then I must agree that the TX and Unity stuff is probably not the best choice.  Having said that, TX is actually very good sounding gear for the price.  TX4's over TX9's make a very nice rig and they are pretty bulletproof with the processor and its sense lines.

BUT, the TX series is older and getting dated and is not as widely known as some gear.  IMHO one of the best deals right now would be some used KF650e's with the UX8800 processor.

Incoming groups are usually more tolerant of less known subs than they are of tops.  KF650e's over some decent horns like LA400, LS1208, UCS1p, TH115, etc would make a nice rig and the horn sub efficiency will save you money on amps and power requirements.

[Douglas Johnson]

I find both the TX4 and U15 to be great sounding speakers, I would consider these points:

The TX4s rock, the U15s, not quite so much.
The TX4s are heavy for their size, the U15s are a bigger box.
The TX4s are bi-amp only, the U15 can be run full range.
The TX4s have both flytrack and threaded inserts, the U15s only inserts.
The TX4s come with grill foam, the U15s do not.

As far as the LS1208 vs the Tx9s.  I don't have any first hand knowledge of the 1208.  I did have the ES908 before the TX9s which were a single 18" horn loaded.  I like the TX9s much better.  Properly powered they rock.  I have tried them with several different power schemes and think that the best option is
the Yorkville AP6040.  

[Donnie Evans]

Jeff Babcock wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 10:34

What sort of riders are you seeing Donnie?  If you're mostly doing local shows and not many touring acts it really won't matter what name is on the box as long as it sounds good.

None.  This is a ground-up deal, I haven't ever had a rig big enough for someone with a rider.  But that said, I dont' want to blow a pile on a huge TX/Unity/Elite rig that I can't use.  A rig of decent size will probably only be used on larger acts, which I assume will have a tech rider.  

The main thing is there is nothing what-so-ever in the way of a decent sized production company in this area.  Maybe one or 2 in Savannah, and there are a few good ones in Atlanta, but in-between... nothing.  Everything that's done in Augusta comes out of Atlanta or Columbia.  

[Brad Weber]

Perhaps a different approach, determine the applications (type of events, venues, levels required, etc.) and what the market wants then look at what you need to support those applications and what that market will support.  It makes no sense to buy something that is better than the competition but can't be cost competitive with them or that can be cost competitive but can't compete on name and rider acceptance against others.

It sounds like you know your market pretty well, so what events and venues are you looking at?  What are the companies from Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia providing for the events for which you want to compete?  Is transportation and the physical setup required a factor for you?

[Jeff Babcock]

Donnie Evans wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 12:00

None.  This is a ground-up deal, I haven't ever had a rig big enough for someone with a rider.  But that said, I dont' want to blow a pile on a huge TX/Unity/Elite rig that I can't use.  A rig of decent size will probably only be used on larger acts, which I assume will have a tech rider.   The main thing is there is nothing what-so-ever in the way of a decent sized production company in this area.  Maybe one or 2 in Savannah, and there are a few good ones in Atlanta, but in-between... nothing.  Everything that's done in Augusta comes out of Atlanta or Columbia.

Donnie,
I don't think having a big rig is going to suddenly start generating business for you to the point where it will be profitable.  In my experience shows are primarily gained through building personal contacts and references, especially on the level you are talking about.  If you are indeed starting from ground zero then you need to build a reputation more than you need gear.

If you spend ANY money on gear I would want to be very careful.  Having a rental business with a bunch of cheap lighting and some SRM450's (just a random example) will likely be MUCH more profitable than having a big rig.

Initially you are probably better off partnering with one of the bigger companies for a big show - hire them to do racks and stacks and you run the rig.  You get the experience and contacts, and you don't have to own, store, or maintain the gear.

If your "investor" really knew what kind of investment live sound is he would probably think twice.  It is not the place to get rich, that's for sure.

[Evan Kirkendall]

I doubt you could array 4 U15s per side and have it sound decent. Instead of buying 6-8 MI tops, put the money into 4 pro tops. You can score EAW KF650e's for a very good price right now. They are going as low as $1200 a box if you know where to look. 4 of them properly powered will sound better and get louder then 8 U15's. Or, as mentioned before, the Community SLS960's are another good option. They'll get about 14 dB louder then the U15's and dont need a ton of power to get loud.

Sub wise, the LS1208's will absolutely destroy any of the other mentioned subs. 4 per side would really slam, and I mean SLAM! They get quite loud and go low.

If you can afford it, the SB1000z's would be a good, rider friendly alternative.




Evan

[Donnie Evans]

Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 13:04

Perhaps a different approach, determine the applications (type of events, venues, levels required, etc.) and what the market wants then look at what you need to support those applications and what that market will support.  It makes no sense to buy something that is better than the competition but can't be cost competitive with them or that can be cost competitive but can't compete on name and rider acceptance against others. It sounds like you know your market pretty well, so what events and venues are you looking at?  What are the companies from Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia providing for the events for which you want to compete?  Is transportation and the physical setup required a factor for you?

I'm looking at something that can cover a decent sized outdoor festival type gig, and could also meet riders for some B-rate nationals.  Nothing too big comes through here, and if they do, I know I'm not gonna be able to provide for a mainstream touring national, so I'm not looking that far.

EDIT:  I'm looking to cover hundreds to a few thousand.... not ten-thousands.

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

6/4 or so TX4/TX9 per side is a very nice compact get up and go rig.  We have put some miles on ours with zero failures, I like 'em (Shoot me a PM.....)

[Loren Aguey]

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 11:18

Sub wise, the LS1208's will absolutely destroy any of the other mentioned subs. 4 per side would really slam, and I mean SLAM! They get quite loud and go low. Evan

The LS1208's are nice, but they certainly will not destroy TX9's. Quite the opposite actually. Yorkville absolutely dominates the club scene in Vancouver, so I've seen and used most of their elite line and all of the TX line. The TX9 is by far they're best sub that I've used and I'm assuming it performs better than the UCS1 judging by specs alone.

And I don't know why everyone keeps saying the eat up power either. You put two TX9's on a plx 3402 and they will slam. Granted you bridge one on each as well but either way you're fine.

So in short Donnie, Elite series is nice, TX series is better. Kinda goes without saying seeing its a higher end line. But if you're gonna go yorkville subs,  I'd definitely go with TX9's over LS1208's, no questions asked. They go lower and are nice and punchy.

And I've never once blown any single component in a TX rig, TX2 wedges and all,  in the last 3 years so they're absolutely rock solid.

They're have been some other good non yorkville suggestions, but I'd say TX is the way to go if you do end up sticking with yorkville. U15s are also really nice but also really heavy not quite as bulletproof in my experience.

[Evan Kirkendall]

Loren Aguey wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 15:08

So in short Donnie, Elite series is nice, TX series is better. Kinda goes without saying seeing its a higher end line. But if you're gonna go yorkville subs,  I'd definitely go with TX9's over LS1208's, no questions asked. They go lower and are nice and punchy.

I disagree. Ive used both as well, and even on paper the LS1208's win by a long shot. The TX9's do 131dB peak, while the LS1208's will do 136dB peak. So, a single LS1208 has 5dB more output. Now, a single TX9 will go lower, but when you start adding pairs, the LS1208's dominate. A pair of LS1208's are solid to 35hz without issues. A block of 4 will hit below 30hz and below without issues. The LS1208's also win in sensitivity. 98dB vs 105dB @ 1w/1m.

If I had to pick, it would be the LS1208 any day.



Evan

[Tim Tyler]

Yorkville stuff...

4 TX8's will certainly take care of the big crowd better than 6 or 8 TX4's.  More than twice the $$ and weight, but better, imo, than trying to make a bunch of smaller boxes work well together.  The Yorkville processor is pretty much plug & play, and is very safe.

In my experience, having used both the 1208 & TX9, the TX is more solid, punchier, and defined than the 1208, at least as loud & low.

-Tim T

[Nathan DePaulo]

I worked for a production company that had a fairly significant collection of Yorkville products.

I've used the U15P and for a small box it's beautiful.  Sounds clear, easy to mix on, don't need to have the mix loud to really hear everything.  For the price one of my favorites.  I don't know how the passive version compares since the U15P is tri-amped.  I really wish tri-amping was an option on any of the non-powered Unitys.

I've mixed on the TX8 & TX9S system, but have not used the TX4.  The TX line is obviously geared much more towards touring.  And the tops that I've used, the TX8s, are a loud and edgy box.  They're very efficient. Only issue with those is that even before you've put much power into them is they sound a little "stressed" at higher volume.  This is of course just my opinion.

TX9S vs LS1208S.  I have the 1208's, great value.  Seem to be every bit as loud at the TXs.  The advantaged to spending a few extra dollars on the TX9s is that they're less truck space (the 1208's are pretty unwieldy) and the TX9s sound better to me for live music.  The 1208 being very DJ friendly in comparison.  

I think all of these are great values. However if you're thinking of buying new, from a dealer (not becoming a dealer yourself) I would suggest looking for full USED system.  The TX system will meet some riders when explained, but almost never gets asked for (in my experience). The Elite/Unity will suit many applications, but I don't expect to see it on "rider preferred" lists anytime soon.  I would also file JBL SRX in that category too. Great products, bit expensive, not what touring bands are asking for.

I hope this helps.

[Jon Dees]

+1 for Brad's comments regarding determining your market.

The reason that you're getting so much conflicting advice is that you haven't given us (or yourself, probably) enough analysis of your potential market to know what recommendation to make.  The question of 1 sub being better than another seems to fall into the "extremely subjective" category, thus the plethora of responses that you've gotten on that front.

Until you can clarify the annoying details of plan, then I don't think that you should look at 1 box vs. another.  Larger issues include cash flow, market potential, transportation and logistics, help/potential employees.  Until you know where you can take this little venture you've started, you can't know what format of system to look to.

How many gigs do you think you personally could do per week/month?  Lots of the system engineers on the lab do 4-7 events or more per week.  Do you think you can endure this?  Do you have the time or interest to do this?  How much can you charge for each of these events?

Once you know that, then you can start to look at where you should take a potential system.  If you plan on your sound company being you and a helper doing 1-4 events per month, then 200 pound cabs like TX8's would make a lot of sense.  If you want to see how far you can take this little company, then things like outside financing (like a bank) is something that you should investigate.  For many events, the sticker on the speaker and the mixer are the most important way to get your foot in the door, so you need those entry-level badges before many will listen to you.  This is where you would get a bank loan.  Nevertheless, getting serious like this requires some serious financial acumen to forecast things like transportation costs, equipment wear and depreciation, and other real business/accounting ideas and concerns.  

In short, take some time to think this through; decide what your expectations are and realize that most of running a sustainable sound business is more about the business than about the sound.

Jon

[Mario Castro]

If I had the money I would go with this:

[Loren Aguey]

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 12:35

Loren Aguey wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 15:08 So in short Donnie, Elite series is nice, TX series is better. Kinda goes without saying seeing its a higher end line. But if you're gonna go yorkville subs,  I'd definitely go with TX9's over LS1208's, no questions asked. They go lower and are nice and punchy. I disagree. Ive used both as well, and even on paper the LS1208's win by a long shot. The TX9's do 131dB peak, while the LS1208's will do 136dB peak. So, a single LS1208 has 5dB more output. Now, a single TX9 will go lower, but when you start adding pairs, the LS1208's dominate. A pair of LS1208's are solid to 35hz without issues. A block of 4 will hit below 30hz and below without issues. The LS1208's also win in sensitivity. 98dB vs 105dB @ 1w/1m. If I had to pick, it would be the LS1208 any day. Evan

Fair enough, my experience with LS1208's has been limited to 1 per side, and regardless of the specs, I enjoyed my one per side sub experience with the TX9's better. My 1st house gig had two TX9's per side powered by two MX3000's, it was massive bottom end in that room.  


To each his own, Donnie will fare just fine with either sub. Disregarding overall output for the moment, I really just think the TX9's plain sound better. Tim mentioned they're more "defined" and thats one way I would describe the comparison as well.

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

And, unless he is running different drive, the TX4P is geared for the 9.

TX8/9 combo is great, no doubt.  However, scalability is something to consider as well.  You will get those shows where you may only need a single TX4 per side and a single sub, or 2 over 1.

I find the 4's get along nicely with about 2 inches gap at the front, back corners touching or even apart an inch or so. Pretty decent box, doesn't need much in the way of EQ at all.  And, if you are short on labour, they are easier to move around, 2 fit into a pullover case that is manageable.

[Donnie Evans]

Thanks for all the great replies guys.  I'm really leaning towards some used KF650e with the UX8800 for GF processing. Hopefully that will help me open the door to some things until I can make a name for myself.  I'm a bit of a brand whore so I'd likely go with some LA400 underneath, but still considering the LS1208.  Just keeping my fingers crossed hoping my backer can come through!

[Matt Vivlamore]

Hey Donnie, What system are you stepping up from?


I was in the same boat as you about 6-months to year ago with wanting to upgrade the U15s to KF650# or equivalent.  I still would love to do that.  

However, my area has defined my growth.  As 95% of the shows within an hour and half radius I can use 1 U15 per side and be perfectly fine with it.  The other 5% of the shows, I can put up a pair of NX55p for front fills, raise the U15s a little higher and be completely perfect.

I am still looking at getting a second pair of U15s and UCS1s, but that is later on down the road.  As I am looking at running 2 U15/UCS1s per side and covering up to 650 people indoors at 100-108 dba about 60-70 feet back.  With that I can support most shows that are about 3 hours away.

[Bruce Gering]

Pat Cognitore wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 09:12

It just seems with the 60* conical dispersion horn you'll get a ton of interference between elements unless you splay them very wide (do you need 180* to 240* horizontal coverage?) and/or splay them vertically (are they even designed for this?).

Pat, I have to disagree. One of the main selling points of the Unity horn is how well they behave in multiples, and yes, they are designed with this in mind. There are some folks here who have used a 3 box per side array (even tight packed) with great results, myself included. Do they have 0 interaction? Of course not. But it is much less than you'd expect and much less than your typical 15"/2" 60* trap cab.