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Author Topic: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks  (Read 39539 times)

Eric Dodson

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Re: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2008, 10:53:09 pm »

Evan; You've come a long way in a short time. It seems like less than a year ago you were asking advice on purchasing a O1V96, going Analog to digital. Now your wanting to travel with a M7 to do your shows, Kudos Dude!!
Once you embrace digital consoles, (as you know) things get easier, faster and lighter....
I guess its safe to say that your in the deep-end of the pool now..
Cheers.
Eric Dodson
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John Stoffel

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Re: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2008, 11:04:08 pm »

While I will agree that digital desks are the future. They require no (or little) outboard, they weigh less...etc.
What I didn't see was anyone mention sound quality.
IMO the only digital desk that actually sounds as warm as an analog is the XL8. Which I have only played with at namm.
But at that price tag I doubt any regional companies will have one anytime soon.

I suppose what I got from this thread was what it is suppose to come down to...How does it sound?

Yes, I have mixed on 'em. Did the 5d training as well.

I love the interface, and I can get around on it easily. But H3 they are not.

That my .02 worth...flame suit on

John
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Toby Mills

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Re: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2008, 11:10:02 pm »

So are you saying that the only digital desk that sounds better than all analog desks is an XL8.

I would take a digital A&H I-Live over most analog desks purely on how good it sounds.

Does a PM5d not sound as good as a Mackie or Behringer analog?

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John Stoffel

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Re: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2008, 11:15:36 pm »

Toby Mills wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 23:10

So are you saying that the only digital desk that sounds better than all analog desks is an XL8.

I would take a digital A&H I-Live over most analog desks purely on how good it sounds.

Does a PM5d not sound as good as a Mackie or Behringer analog?



No. The 5 D sounds far better than a Mackie or Behringer.. But I should have said compared to a Midas which I use everyday,  no digital console which I have been on has sounded as good. No, I have not heard, nor played with the I-Live.

Not trying to start an argument really. I was just more amazed that no one had even mentioned sound quality.
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Toby Mills

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Re: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2008, 11:23:49 pm »

John

Personally I think the reason why sound quality isn't mentioned anymore is because in general I think modern digital systems have caught up in this regard. There are very few people who could hear the difference and mixing skills and other components in the signal chain will play a much bigger part in the final results than whether the console is analog or digital.

A few years ago with lower bit and sample rates,lower quality preamps and A to D converters and reduced DSP horsepower, the sound quality was noticeably lower on the digital systems.

These days the functional advantages of digital far outweigh any tiny 'warmth' advantages.
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John Stoffel

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Re: Don't mix rock'n'roll with digital desks
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2008, 11:35:43 pm »

Toby, I agree with you on that. I was kinda trying to make a point.
BTW when I was at namm I did see the I-Live. unfortunately, I was not able to hear it. The interface did seem to make sense.

For my gig right now I will stay analog, however I am keeping up with the technology. That was one reason I did the Yammie training.
But oh my, the XL8..somehow I have to convince the boss that he needs one!

Take care,

John
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Mac Kerr

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You Don't mix rock'n'roll at trade shows
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2008, 11:45:55 pm »

John Stoffel wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 23:35

BTW when I was at namm I did see the I-Live. unfortunately, I was not able to hear it. The interface did seem to make sense.

For my gig right now I will stay analog, however I am keeping up with the technology. That was one reason I did the Yammie training.
But oh my, the XL8..somehow I have to convince the boss that he needs one!

I can't remember ever hearing anything at a trade show that didn't sound good. I would sure never base an opinion on sound quality from a trade show set up. I still don't get what people think is so great about the XL8. All you guys complaining about 24 input faders and layers on Yamaha consoles, don't seem to mind the same thing if it says Midas on it. The layout is very similar to a D5, with better video monitors. It is a great looking console. The use of Hyper MAC networking is what other console manufacturers (Yamaha) should do with their newer consoles. The "POP" groups are a great innovation, beyond that, not so much.

And here in the Lounge, not so likely.

Mac
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Art Welter

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Re: You Don't mix rock'n'roll at trade shows
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2008, 01:06:25 am »

Mac,

I drive a 2005 Mustang that reminds me of a ‘67, and mix on a Midas Venice that reminds me of the first used Midas I owned that I waited for months for shipping and was stolen after owning it for weeks.  I am prejudiced, but not completely listening impaired.

Matt gave me an XL8 backpack at it’s introduction, about as close as I’ll probably get to mixing on one, but you know, I’d go for the Masarati over the Mustang, and Midas has managed to maintain a little cache, I am still waiting for them to release an affordable digital console before my Venice is worthless.

As far as what is so great about an XL8, it still sounds good when it is overdriven. There may be other alternatives that would save 200K, but dang, it’s the real thang.

Anyway, illusions and realities will be hard to break between Yamaha (and I owned many more Yamahas than Midas) and Midas.

It seems Midas won’t be joining the proletariat in the digital realm for a while, so I should start perusing the under stratospheric offerings.
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Toby Mills

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Re: You Don't mix rock'n'roll at trade shows
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2008, 01:31:55 am »

Quote:

As far as what is so great about an XL8, it still sounds good when it is overdriven.


Minor point, but its physically impossible to overdrive a digital signal.
No matter what digital system you use, if you go over peak it will sound BAD.

However, its very easy to make the peak lights come on 6 clicks below digital peak to give the impression something is being overdriven, but its absolutely impossible to apply the same overdriving techniques often used in analog and still get a good sound.

If the bit depth is deep enough then digital peak may well be higher than the point where the preamps start sounding bad and the metered level appears to be peaking. So in that case it can give the impression that you are overdriving the channel and it doesn't sound bad. Practically speaking there is little point in this though as it just wastes headroom. Most engineers now know that you keep the gain well below the red line on a digital console.

I don't see many engineers these days that overdrive channels just to get the 'sound'. DSP and plugins can now achieve equally good results without any risk of killing anything.

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David A. Parker

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Re: You Don't mix rock'n'roll at trade shows
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2008, 06:53:37 am »

I'm a small one man operation, and I went from a Midas Venice (which I dearly loved) to a yamaha LS9. I held onto the Venice until I was sure, then I sold it, no regrets. The Venice might be a tiny bit sweeter sounding, but the LS9 makes life so much easier for me. Between the lack of needing outboard gear, to the 16 aux sends, to the huge benefit of recall, I never looked back.
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David Parker
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