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Author Topic: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share  (Read 36896 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2008, 08:46:05 pm »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 19:32

 Phil,

We could debate Fuels for Fusion or Fission till the cows come home, the only point that I was trying to make was that one of the biggest users of petroleum products is to generate Electricity; Which could be generated by other sources.

 Regarding Gasoline Pumps,  I worked on a  side project for a company that made meters years ago. The meter was a Coriolis meter, which measured mass-flow, it had no internal moving parts like turbine, displacement, piston,etc... and could be used(when calibrated) to measure liquid/ slurry mixture,low density to high, high to low viscosity.  Extremely more accurate than even vortex shedders.
That is when I realized that Gasoline Pumps were measuring volume and not mass.  Some Tankers (probably all now) were converting their fleet to Mass Flow meters to get more accurate reading when selling to the retailer Retail pumps did not have mass flow meters, pretty certain they still don't.  

Volumetric expansions : V= V sub0(1 plus B[delta t])

Do the math and see if there couldn't be a substantial difference.

Cheers

Hammer


Some states insist on delivery normalized for temperature. As I mentioned the difference in modest 1% per 15' and storage temp doesn't swing all that much.
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In fact the biggest use of petroleum is for transportation. Electrical generation is mainly coal, with nuclear, hydro, and some new generation is coming on line to burn LNG (My brother is a consultant and involved with a new LNG plant in south west somewhere).

Electric cars for modest commutes charged by the grid, will reduce our marginal oil demand, but we're years away from that being significant. Less years than before though.

JR
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Patrick Tracy

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2008, 08:47:52 pm »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 17:54

Patrick,

I thought my comments were self explainitory, not to upset or anger anyone... I understand the politics involved in the fuel debate, I was only answering as to the question, why we've used petroleum... Because until recently, it has been a cheap source of energy, and frankly, other than Nuclear, it has been one of the few sources of energy we could put into the practice of using.
I understand solar energy and the products used to capture it.
I am all for using it, and the other sources as well, Nuclear, Wind, etc... But again, Solar has been cost inefficient until recently. And, I understand the concept of one's selling the surplus to the Utility... I corrected someones Math equation from the previous Thread, explaining that their Math was flawed in the Amount of energy their system would produce.

And, finally the Laws of Physics do not change... whether I discuss them or anyone else....    Quote:"I talking about leveraging our Solar thermal, photovoltaic, wind, etc...."

 All of the above make energy from: Mechanical, Chemical or Thermal.

Yes, things will have to change, but...maybe they're raping us on fuel costs to afford the ability to provide Energy derived from other forms when the Petrol runs out.

Hammer

I'm not angry or upset, at least not at you. I was reacting to what appeared as an apologist viewpoint for fossil fuel usage. I probably misinterpreted you intent.

The laws of physics may possibly be static but our understanding of them is not, mine in particular. I was just concerned that those laws would be used as an excuse not to explore other means of getting energy. It's the social, political and economic obstacles that I feel are more challenging than the technical ones. I think they're raping us on fuel costs simply because they can and because the opportunity may be limited.

Kristian Johnsen

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2008, 08:51:36 pm »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:13

I would not be surprised if gasoline pumps were not temperature compensated, in all states (like where I live). I would be surprised if there was a big difference with time of day.

How much does the temperature change for a liquid stored underground? The volume changes about 1% for every 15' variation so perhaps it could make a bigger difference than one of those water thingys....

JR







On my recent travels to Australia I stayed in an underground hostel in a little town called Coober Pedy - the town, famous for it's opal mining has something like 90% underground housing.  Apparantly, they use no space heaters or air con in these homes, no matter if it's under the blazing mid summer sun or through the severity of a winter storm - the temperature is always the same inside.  Based on this I would agree with your statement that the fuel is pretty much always the same temperature, and hence, size, as long as it is stored underground.
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Ian Hunt

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2008, 08:51:48 pm »

No problem

Someone will buy it (I have Nigerian Financing all arranged)  Smile
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Phillip_Graham

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2008, 08:54:56 pm »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 20:32

 Phil,

We could debate Fuels for Fusion or Fission till the cows come home, the only point that I was trying to make was that one of the biggest users of petroleum products is to generate Electricity; Which could be generated by other sources.


I totally missed that point, my apologies.    I merely keyed in on Helium-3, which, frankly, is lousy technology in a field stuffed with lousy technology.  Your point is of course completely valid and correct.  The reality is that the production of electricity from oil has been on the decline for decades.

I suggest that you check out "Nuclear Renaissance: Technologies and Policies for the Future of Nuclear Power" by W. J. Nuttall from your local library, and read the first few chapters, as they give a very concise overview of the economics of the changing face of worldwide electrical power generation, segregated by fuel type.  It is very enlightening, and gives a picture of the reality of where our electricity will come from for the forseeable future (i.e. purely driven by economics).

Quote:


That is when I realized that Gasoline Pumps were measuring volume and not mass.  Some Tankers (probably all now) were converting their fleet to Mass Flow meters to get more accurate reading when selling to the retailer Retail pumps did not have mass flow meters, pretty certain they still don't.  

Volumetric expansions : V= V sub0(1 plus B[delta t])

Do the math and see if there couldn't be a substantial difference.

Cheers

Hammer


Sure their could be a substantial difference, but nothing a thermocouple or RTD, and some very simple circuitry couldn't account for.  It is a stable, linear, correction after all!

I have worked with mass flow controllers for nearly a decade now, and am familiar with their operation and benefits over volumetric systems.

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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2008, 08:59:50 pm »

Phillip Graham wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 19:44




Petroleum's big plus as an energy source is that it is already here.  If we had to directly synthesize petroleum, it would be embroiled in just as much debate as any other technology.

As soon as you exhaust the inherent supplies of any energy source (eg petroleum) you are faced with manufacturing a replacement, and potentially on a global scale.

Hopefully this makes sense...




If it made sense to most people we wouldn't have threads like this.

FWIW Petroleum will stop getting burned for energy long before we run out, when plastic becomes more valuable than the energy source du jour. I am optimistic we will come up with more effective ways to harness all the kinetic energy around us, not to mention that significant heat/light source some 93 million miles away, which BTW was the original source of energy in all that fossil fuel we're just now harvesting.

This oil scarcity is just poor planning/management in the short term. Economic forces are already nudging us toward better choices. This too will pass.

JR

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Phillip_Graham

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2008, 09:05:46 pm »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 20:59

Phillip Graham wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 19:44




Petroleum's big plus as an energy source is that it is already here.  If we had to directly synthesize petroleum, it would be embroiled in just as much debate as any other technology.

As soon as you exhaust the inherent supplies of any energy source (eg petroleum) you are faced with manufacturing a replacement, and potentially on a global scale.

Hopefully this makes sense...




If it made sense to most people we wouldn't have threads like this.


Point taken.  I suppose since I have interest in working in this area it is just as well that people are misinformed, will give me something to do Smile

Quote:


FWIW Petroleum will stop getting burned for energy long before we run out, when plastic becomes more valuable than the energy source du jour.


Plastic and airplanes, two technologies enabled by oil (especially air travel!).  The energy density of any alternative doesn't cut it.  Of course the economic question there is what will the incredible increase in cost of air travel from fuel do to the industry, which should be a factor long before the ultimate oil supply runs out.  Zeppelins anyone?

Quote:


I am optimistic we will come up with more effective ways to harness all the kinetic energy around us, not to mention that significant heat/light source some 93 million miles away, which BTW was the original source of energy in all that fossil fuel we're just now harvesting.


As I have said before, the fact that we do not directly obtain all of our energy from nuclear sources (including the Sun) makes us the exception, rather than the rule, in the Universe.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2008, 09:18:02 pm »

 While I realize I misspoke regarding petroleum as a fuel for generating Electricity. I was referring to it's sister industry of Coal. Sorry and Thank You, for pointing that out.

 While I understand the methods for generating Electricity in the Past and Present, has been driven by the Economy, I believe in the Future it will be driven by Desperation.

Observation: Throughout History mankind has been driven to develop new technologies and products because of desperation, in as much for the reason of greed.

 Pump manufacturers were really keen on the Idea of using Mass Flow Meters, but, then later claimed they couldn't because of higher manufacturing costs that could not be passed on to the Stations.
(the amount of regulations regarding Gasoline Pumps were astronomical at the time.)
The Individual States still send a guy with an "old technology" prover to check customers complaints. Very Happy

It's possible things have changed, but, I wouldn't bet on it.

P.S. The density of a fluid will vary from Temperature and Pressure.

Thanks,

Hammer
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2008, 09:21:08 pm »

Phillip Graham wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 20:05



Point taken.  I suppose since I have interest in working in this area it is just as well that people are misinformed, will give me something to do Smile


That's the only reason to appreciate all the ignorance, but I believe we would be better off with a little better understanding of general science among the voting public and their representatives.

I very much enjoy the technical detail you bring to these discussions.  

Quote:



Plastic and airplanes, two technologies enabled by oil (especially air travel!).  The energy density of any alternative doesn't cut it.  Of course the economic question there is what will the incredible increase in cost of air travel from fuel do to the industry, which should be a factor long before the ultimate oil supply runs out.  Zeppelins anyone?



Zepplins get a bad rap, just like nuclear power. I would differentiate petroleum for making plastics from airplane fuel. I believe they have already successfully liquefied coal for use in airborne turbines, and Virgin did a test flight with bio-fuel. So again, we'll survive with minor economic adjustments.

Quote:



As I have said before, the fact that we do not directly obtain all of our energy from nuclear sources (including the Sun) makes us the exception, rather than the rule, in the Universe.


+1 as usual... It's an end game that we will have a hard time avoiding despite our ignorant preferences.

JR
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2008, 09:38:17 pm »

Patrick Tracy wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 19:36

I guess I was reacting to what seemed to be an attitude that "it can't be done." Probably overreacting. I do appreciate my less logical expressions being pointed out.

I would say that there seems to be a viable battery technology that has been left out of most conversations of this sort, flywheels developed by Jack Bitterly and others. They circumvent the whole issue of chemistry as energy storage. They don't need replacing every couple of years. They charge as fast as they discharge making regenerative braking efficient.

Even if that particular technology doesn't pan out there are endless ways of manipulating energy. It's our willingness to accept the status quo that is the biggest obstacle to a better solution than simply burning stuff that's been laying around. I don't accept that the only reasonable energy sourced is fossil fuel.


Flywheel power was real hot, what was that back in the '60s? Flywheels may make sense for some fixed installations to smooth demand but all you need to see is what happens after a simple flywheel lets lose on a drag race car, to imagine the potential for bad consequences after being scaled up many times.

I always though flywheel storage made most sense for subway trains, since they're mostly stopping and starting in a straight line. I think they developed some counter rotating wheels to mitigate gyroscopic forces but there still could be nasty bearing loads and other issues to deal with.

Flywheels, IMO make more sense as a low pass filter to smooth energy supply/demand but is not without it's own problems when scaled up to reasonable levels.

We have become blas
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