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Author Topic: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share  (Read 36769 times)

Randy Frierson

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2008, 03:45:06 pm »

Look i don't want to argue just share of what i have seen myself.
these guys are serious and very smart, i can't explain the process (YET) but I know it does work, upon initial tests they got 10 to 12 %, and that did not satisfy them, they are working with other such like them across the US and tried a better container, different plates and now they are approaching figures like 40-50 %..the car does not run on water it's more like a process to make it more efficient..Every 2 weeks you open this cannister that holds about a quart maybe less and add water. I'm not asking anyone for money and I was skeptical as well but i seen it and now i'm a believer..like i said i am having the device installed on my Hino truck. I will run the truck on a tank of fuel back and forth to tampa from delray beach, and then check my MPG, i then will run same truck empty as before w device back and forth to tampa (same route) and then check my MPG, then i will report back..I believe my friend next door and he said his truck got on avg 9-12 MPG and after a week he is getting 18-20..Period..If it's Voodoo then I'm now into Voodoo..I'm just reporting do with it what you want...Randy
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Phillip_Graham

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2008, 04:08:32 pm »

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 13:39

Steve Weiss wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 10:45

OK please tell me this is a late April fools joke????


No, it's a separate the fools from their money joke.   Rolling Eyes

It takes electrical energy to perform electrolysis on the water, the H and O burn, releasing the energy that was put into it, zero sum game.

I will wait for Randy's actual gas mileage report, not what he believes will happen.

JR




Its actually a little worse than a zero sum game, JR.  I just did the thermodynamics out to double-check.

The heat extractable to the surroundings from the decrease in entropy caused by the formation of the H2O from combustion of H2 and O2 will always be lower, in the case of a reversible, isothermal process (ie the best case scenario).

This is a function of the definition of entropy under these conditions: dS=dQ/T.  Since, for irreversible processes dS>dQ/T real processes are worse than in the reversible case.

Even if you consider the behavior of the system as reversible, and use an ideal Carnot cycle (ie two isothermal steps linked to two constant entropy steps) The energy from the chemical reaction of combustion of the hydrogen and oxygen (which takes place at the high temperature point of the carnot cycle) has an inherent penalty.

Ach, that's still complicated.  One more try:

1.  Put a fixed Q into the system by a chemical reaction at some high temperature: dQ=T_high(dS), or after integration at constant T: deltaQ=T_high*deltaS  That means you get an amount of entropy S for a given Q.

2.  Now you cool the system to a lower temperature under constant entropy conditions, so S stays the same.  dQ is now: dQ=T_low(dS) or deltaQ=T_low*deltaS.  Since S is fixed, and T is smaller, the extractable Q is always less at T_low that the Q you put in at T_high.

The difference between the input Q at T_high, and the extracted Q at T_low then represents the total work done by engine during its cycle.

It should be clear then that the lower T_low is, the less heat you have to pull from the system to return to the beginning of the Carnot cycle, and the more was converted to (Pressure)*(Volume) work on the surroundings during the isentropic expansion phase.  Hence the desire for the largest temperature gradient possible between the Q in (chemical reaction) and Q out (e.g. radiator sending heat into the ambient air).  Since T_low is not 0 Kelvin, and dS for a real engine will be greater than dS_ideal for a reversible system, there is always a penalty for the extraction of mechanical work.

In a real system, the input Q is fixed per amount of fuel burned, in this case from the electrolysis of water.

At a minimum you therefore take the Carnot efficiency penalty, and the efficiency penalty of the battery/alternator combination.  

The are only two ways the system would seem to come out ahead.  First would be with the production of the hydrogen by an external battery, which of course is just passing the buck for input Q.

The second way the system might possibly come out ahead would be if the injection of H2 and O2 dramatically increased the T_high for the car's engine (ie increasing the average internal cylinder temperature).  The efficiency of a Carnot engine is related to the difference in (T_high-T_low)/Absolute temperature.  I give this a remote, at best possibility of happening, but it is at least conceivable.

BTW, if anyone reads this and feels just totally confused, don't feel bad!  I had two semesters of undergraduate thermodynamics/kinetics, and two semesters of graduate thermo/kinetics, and THEN TA'ed for a graduate level thermodynamics class.  It didn't start to make any real sense to me until graduate school and TA'ing.  J. W. Gibbs was a genius!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2008, 04:25:41 pm »

 Patrick,

We burn stuff because currently it's cheaper, more efficient, and that it is the technology afforded to us at the moment.

The "grid for distributing it electrically", the majority of power from this grid is from burning. (some from hydro, wind and solar, but a very small percentage)

The laws of Physics are quite clear, you cannot create or destroy matter, all that you can do is change it's form. That the changing of it's form is where we get our "energy". We can only create energy through, Chemical, Mechanical, or Thermal methods.

The idea of using this "Brown water" is great except that the Mechanical limitations of the automobile engine would not show any signs of benefit. They've made hotter burning spark plugs and glow plugs, but the internal combustion engines have seem their limit. Some fuel will not be burnt, no matter what.

It always amazed me that people are hung up on Automakers fuel efficiency reports on a car that they buy. Those reports go out the window because most people don't drive under the ideal conditions that the Maker used. The petroleum engines have pretty much topped out on the fuel efficiencies. They'll either need to switch to another type of "engine" or make the car weigh less. You'd probably see an increase in efficiency if one's car was tuned up, tire pressure was accurate and the driver slowed down,

 Helium 3 would be a great source for Reactors, nonhazardous waste, controllable, but, there is no one lobbying for it.

If you really want to save money on gasoline... always purchase your gas in the morning hours 4-6am. Gasoline pumps use volumetric measurements, not by weight. When the Gas temperature is the coolest it is more dense.

Cheers,
Hammer
 

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Phillip_Graham

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2008, 04:45:48 pm »

Randy Frierson wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 15:45

Look i don't want to argue just share of what i have seen myself.
these guys are serious and very smart, i can't explain the process (YET) but I know it does work, upon initial tests they got 10 to 12 %, and that did not satisfy them, they are working with other such like them across the US and tried a better container, different plates and now they are approaching figures like 40-50 %..the car does not run on water it's more like a process to make it more efficient..Every 2 weeks you open this cannister that holds about a quart maybe less and add water. I'm not asking anyone for money and I was skeptical as well but i seen it and now i'm a believer..like i said i am having the device installed on my Hino truck. I will run the truck on a tank of fuel back and forth to tampa from delray beach, and then check my MPG, i then will run same truck empty as before w device back and forth to tampa (same route) and then check my MPG, then i will report back..I believe my friend next door and he said his truck got on avg 9-12 MPG and after a week he is getting 18-20..Period..If it's Voodoo then I'm now into Voodoo..I'm just reporting do with it what you want...Randy


Randy,

If this method indeed provides any gain (color me a major skeptic) it is only going to come by increasing what is known as the adiabatic flame temperature inside the combustion system.  There is simply no way to come out ahead on this system without modifying the Carnot efficiency of your engine.  This is achieved through greater heat at combustion, cooler outflow, or some combination thereof.

While I am skeptical that the system is injecting enough hydrogen/oxygen to successfully increase the adiabatic flame temperature inside the cylinders, I would be concerned about the long term reliability of the motor system if it succeeds.

If the system is merely a atomized water injection system (ie no electrolysis) then this is nothing new, and was in fact used by the German's extensively during WWII to increase the power of their fighter airplane engines.  This, also, has potential ramifications on the long term reliability of your engines.

I am not rejecting the concept outright.  Applied under careful computer control at the right points on an acceleration curve it might do "something good" for your fuel economy.  However, I would be very leery of trusting the mechanical longevity of my engines to something that is sold using a large amount of pseudoscience and snake oil tactics.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2008, 04:52:11 pm »

Maybe you can get your friends to write up a short description of what they are doing/how it works, along with any principals they are applying.
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Andy Peters

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2008, 04:59:15 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 13:52

 along with any principals they are applying.


The principles are interesting, too Wink

-a
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Phillip_Graham

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2008, 05:00:42 pm »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25

 
 Helium 3 would be a great source for Reactors, nonhazardous waste, controllable, but, there is no one lobbying for it.


Helium 3?  It should be pointed out that we are no where close to harnessing fusion cycles as heat bath processes.  Also the while the fusion of Helium three does not produce stray neutrons, the other potential fusion reactions in the system (eg H and H) produce large amounts of energetic neutrons.

Additionally, the accepted method for the production of Helium-3 is from the decay of tritium, which itself is produced from the neutron bombardment of lithium 6, which is not exactly a benign, earth-friendly, precursor.

While I am definitely a proponent of atomic energy (see a long thread I started here in the a couple years back), Helium 3 would not be on my list of methods to consider.

As an undergraduate, I rode the bus to campus every day with a physicist who was working on other alternative "aneutronic" fusion reactions.  After talking to him, I am convinced the one with the best potential is the fustion of a proton with Boron-11.  
Even this is a very long way off from our immediate needs for a solution.  Regardless, I keep my ear to the rail on Boron-11 progress.

Quote:


If you really want to save money on gasoline... always purchase your gas in the morning hours 4-6am. Gasoline pumps use volumetric measurements, not by weight. When the Gas temperature is the coolest it is more dense.


This is a fascinating thought, but personally I would fire any design engineer that did not compensate for this relatively simple behavior with temperature...  If it is really true, then it is a major oversight on the behalf of gasoline pump manufacturers.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2008, 05:03:10 pm »

Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 16:59

Ivan Beaver wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 13:52

 along with any principals they are applying.


The principles are interesting, too Wink

-a


Andy strikes again Embarassed

It's good to know we have somebody keeping us all in line Very Happy .
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2008, 05:12:01 pm »

 Although this device and it's methodology may be new, the Idea is not. It dates to atleast the 1930's.  Injecting a higher temp burning gas into the engine cylinders to try to achieve higher horsepower (Nox) or to get better fuel efficiency by burning ALL of the fuel.

A side note:
In the forties a General Motors Engineer supposedly developed an "engine" that used water as it's fuel. I Don't know too much about it but, the story goes, that this man quit his job and continued research on his own, and when he died suddenly, his Home and Garage were ransacked, with all of his papers missing.


If you wrote any postings for the last thread on Fuel/ Prices/ ecology etc...  and were concerned... write a Letter to Nascar and tell them they need to start using Unleaded gasoline.

Hammer
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2008, 05:13:18 pm »

I would not be surprised if gasoline pumps were not temperature compensated, in all states (like where I live). I would be surprised if there was a big difference with time of day.

How much does the temperature change for a liquid stored underground? The volume changes about 1% for every 15' variation so perhaps it could make a bigger difference than one of those water thingys....

JR





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