ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Mix position conversation  (Read 4666 times)

Aaron J. Percy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
Mix position conversation
« on: March 10, 2008, 02:41:48 PM »

Hello all,
 We are designing an upgrade to our existing sanctuary.  The room is quite long and narrow with a delay speaker location about halfway back.  I have asked for a mix location just in front of the delay speaker.  Some of the committee members are interested in moving the mix position all the way to the back of the room.  I am not very excited about mixing while listening the the back wall reflections from the delay speaker.  I am interested to know if anyone can come up any other creative solutions.  Do you think that the back wall would be OK to mix from?  Thanks for any input.
Logged
Peace,  Aaron

Rob Timmerman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2025
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 03:02:42 PM »

First off, any chance you can shrink that image to ~1000 pixels wide, so that readers don't need to constantly scroll side to side?

As far as mixing from the back of the room, if the back wall is properly acoustically treated and the delay speaker is properly aimed, you shouldn't have problems with reflections that would impact your ability to mix.  A bigger issue with mixing from the back of the room is that, depending on the loudspeaker setup, the mix position may be quieter than the bulk of the room.  This tends to lead to mixing hotter than desired.
Logged

Aaron J. Percy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2008, 03:23:45 PM »

Rob, I have posted a smaller pic and left the large image attached to the original post.  Thanks for your reply.  The committee is going to be a hard sell to acoustically treat the back wall.  They(and I) are interested in aesthetics and I am afraid that enough diffusion/absorption to make that wall "disappear" would make a large visual impact on the space and would not fit the  traditional motif of the church.  I expect that the mix position would be quieter than the front of the room where the sub is and the band is.  Also the monitor mix is handles from FOH and the back of th room, especially when full of people is really far to ask for a mix change in your ears or wedge.
index.php/fa/14660/0/
Logged
Peace,  Aaron

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 04:58:47 PM »

If you don't somewhat address the rear wall it could be a problem anyways.  I've been in many churches where "the sound system echoes" even with the system off, a result of untreated large, flat rear walls.

How did you select the 112P?  I have obviously not modeled the room or speakers, but with the long narrow room and apparently "traditional" finishes, a 90 degree conical pattern typically could be problematic.  I'm also not sure how a 90 degree vertical pattern will provide coverage of the rear section without having a significant amount of its energy also hitting the rear wall.

As far as the mix position, please consider how you are going to hide cables and protect the gear.  I don't know how the room is used, but might there need to be times that area is secured?
Logged
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

Aaron J. Percy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 01:00:20 PM »

Brad, the width of the back wall is only about 30 feet.  It is about 60 feet from the delay speaker to the back wall.  There is a small balcony just above the door height with lots of diffusion from some pretty involved woodwork.  The side walls have stained-glass windows deeply beveled into them.  The room has surprisingly few standing waves.  The backs and seats of the pews will be cushioned to reduce reflections and make the room sound more the same regardless of the number of people in it.  I am not too worried about hitting the rear wall as the main speaker enclosures will be angled down at 45 degrees.  

The 112p was chosen based on a loudspeaker shootout done in the room with three different makes/models of speakers.  At the time of the test all parties involved were very happy with the lack of off-axis coloration and the overall sound clarity of the 112p.

The mix position will have a custom built oak roll-top desk to house the audio console and other A/V equipment.  All cabling will be run straight down through the floor in four inch conduit.  The desk will lock for the traditional services, weddings, and funerals with an auto-mixer doing the work.  
Logged
Peace,  Aaron

Tom Young

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2620
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 02:45:43 PM »

I would be concerned with being 60' from the delay loudspeaker.

In general I can put up with being almost anywhere (within reason) on the main floor or even in front of the balcony, provided the mix position is on axis to one of the primary or delay loudspeakers and the system is designed and optimized so that such a position is fairly represnetative of what most folks are hearing.
Logged
Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Aaron J. Percy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 02:53:15 PM »

Tom, I totally agree, and that's why I am trying to get my mix position just in front of the delay speaker.  I have a meeting with the committee on Thursday morning, I am planning on taking the information from this forum with me.
Logged
Peace,  Aaron

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 11:42:21 AM »

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like the main speaker covers about 40' back to the delay speaker which then covers 60' back to the rear wall.  If both speakers are aimed down at a 45 degree angle then unless they are mounted very high it seems that the vertical axis of both speakers would be aimed well forward of the furthest listener in their coverage area, in fact possibly even in the front half of the area they cover.  This usually results in less than optimal coverage and a drop off at the furthest listeners.  That would definitely make the rear of the room a poor location to mix from and it might even mean that your proposed mic position at the rear of the main speaker coverage might be hearing something quite a bit down in level from some other areas in the seating.

With a 90 degree horizontal coverage from speakers mounted at any significant height in a room only 30' wide, it at least seems that there would be much of the speaker's energy hitting the side walls rather than the congregation directly, thus resulting in high level early reflections.

My concern is that these two in combination, reduced direct level and high levels of indirect energy, would often result in intelligibility concerns.  If you auditioned the speakers with them mounted in a way that represents the eventual system configuration and using speech as a source they sounded good and easy to understand throughout the intended area of coverage, then perhaps there is something specific to this application that is preventing such issues.  However, it would generally be something to consider.
Logged
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

Jeff Babcock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2313
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 02:13:25 PM »

Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 11:42

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like the main speaker covers about 40' back to the delay speaker which then covers 60' back to the rear wall.  If both speakers are aimed down at a 45 degree angle then unless they are mounted very high it seems that the vertical axis of both speakers would be aimed well forward of the furthest listener in their coverage area, in fact possibly even in the front half of the area they cover.  This usually results in less than optimal coverage and a drop off at the furthest listeners.  That would definitely make the rear of the room a poor location to mix from and it might even mean that your proposed mic position at the rear of the main speaker coverage might be hearing something quite a bit down in level from some other areas in the seating.

With a 90 degree horizontal coverage from speakers mounted at any significant height in a room only 30' wide, it at least seems that there would be much of the speaker's energy hitting the side walls rather than the congregation directly, thus resulting in high level early reflections.

My concern is that these two in combination, reduced direct level and high levels of indirect energy, would often result in intelligibility concerns.  If you auditioned the speakers with them mounted in a way that represents the eventual system configuration and using speech as a source they sounded good and easy to understand throughout the intended area of coverage, then perhaps there is something specific to this application that is preventing such issues.  However, it would generally be something to consider.



+1

Aaron, please listen to Brad.  He knows a thing or two about this whole install biz.  Just because you liked the sound of a speaker in a shootout still does not make it the right tool for the job.  A 90 deg conical pattern is really not ideal for your space in the arrangement you are proposing.  It could be the best sounding speaker in the world but that really doesn't matter in this case.  Use the proper tools and you can get truly excellent results, use the wrong tools and all bets are off.

BruceOlson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 115
Re: Mix position conversation
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2008, 03:12:03 PM »

Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 10:42

My concern is that these two in combination, reduced direct level and high levels of indirect energy, would often result in intelligibility concerns.  If you auditioned the speakers with them mounted in a way that represents the eventual system configuration and using speech as a source they sounded good and easy to understand throughout the intended area of coverage, then perhaps there is something specific to this application that is preventing such issues.  However, it would generally be something to consider.


I just did a quick EASE model with the assumption that the speakers are mounted 30' above the deck.  It shows about 10dB down at the back of the delay coverage.  It also shows poor intelligibility based on what I would expect for materials in the space.  I have to agree with Brad, if they were mounted on sticks for your demo, then you might not like how they work when mounted at the trusses.  If you auditioned them in their intended location, then the room is far less reverberant than I would expect.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.022 seconds with 15 queries.