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Author Topic: Achieving Clean Kick Drum  (Read 19761 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2008, 01:33:32 pm »

[quote title=Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 13:27It's a big decision.

[/quote]
Not mention that in most cases (not all) it equates to big cabinets as well (normal horns), in order to get decent low freq response.
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Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2008, 01:45:06 pm »

FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!

First, I would like to thank all of you that helped me by provided food for thought as I worked through this problem.

I decided to first connect up my old single 18" bass horns in place of the LA128's leaving everything else alone.  Sounded like crap with the same poor muddy bass response I was experiencing with the LA128's.  

Next, I changed out the pre-amp modules, EQ's, Crossover, etc. and replaced with my old 1980's pre-amp modules 18 db/octive(Audioarts Engineering).  Still sounded bad.  

Next, I replaced the two QSC PLX-3402's with my old two QSC MX-1500A's and Presto, THE MAGIC WAS BACK!  Clean sounding Bass response.  Unbelievable sonic quality difference between the PLX and MX series of QSC.  Now I did not have all the power that I want with the MX-1500A, but good quality bass was recognized.  I purchased the PLX-3402's to get the additional power I would need for the LAS128's.

So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair?  Or is this the nature of the beast?

Thanks Much
Dennis
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Dennis Malek

Phil Lewandowski

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2008, 01:50:00 pm »

Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 13:45

FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!


So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair?  Or is this the nature of the beast?

Thanks Much
Dennis


It may sound really interesting, but there have been several threads here talking about the sound of light-weight switching power supply amps.  

Maybe you are another "+1" to the group of people who still like the sound of the "old heavy iron" amps on subs.  I love my RMX1850 on subs so hey... "If is sounds good... It is Good"

Take Care!
Phil
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Dave Rickard

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2008, 02:32:32 pm »

Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 11:45

FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!

First, I would like to thank all of you that helped me by provided food for thought as I worked through this problem.

I decided to first connect up my old single 18" bass horns in place of the LA128's leaving everything else alone.  Sounded like crap with the same poor muddy bass response I was experiencing with the LA128's.  

Next, I changed out the pre-amp modules, EQ's, Crossover, etc. and replaced with my old 1980's pre-amp modules 18 db/octive(Audioarts Engineering).  Still sounded bad.  

Next, I replaced the two QSC PLX-3402's with my old two QSC MX-1500A's and Presto, THE MAGIC WAS BACK!  Clean sounding Bass response.  Unbelievable sonic quality difference between the PLX and MX series of QSC.  Now I did not have all the power that I want with the MX-1500A, but good quality bass was recognized.  I purchased the PLX-3402's to get the additional power I would need for the LAS128's.

So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair?  Or is this the nature of the beast?

Thanks Much
Dennis


I think there is something else at work here.

Have you tried reversing (un-reversing in this case) the polarity to the 3402's?

Have you tested the polarity on each individual box for miswiring?
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Dave
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"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."

"If you don't have good stuff at each end of the signal chain, (mics and speakers) what you use in between is just turd polish."--Dave Dermont

Mike {AB} Butler

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2008, 02:37:33 pm »

Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 13:45

FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!

First, I would like to thank all of you that helped me by provided food for thought as I worked through this problem.

I decided to first connect up my old single 18" bass horns in place of the LA128's leaving everything else alone.  Sounded like crap with the same poor muddy bass response I was experiencing with the LA128's.  

Next, I changed out the pre-amp modules, EQ's, Crossover, etc. and replaced with my old 1980's pre-amp modules 18 db/octive(Audioarts Engineering).  Still sounded bad.  

Next, I replaced the two QSC PLX-3402's with my old two QSC MX-1500A's and Presto, THE MAGIC WAS BACK!  Clean sounding Bass response.  Unbelievable sonic quality difference between the PLX and MX series of QSC.  Now I did not have all the power that I want with the MX-1500A, but good quality bass was recognized.  I purchased the PLX-3402's to get the additional power I would need for the LAS128's.

So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair?  Or is this the nature of the beast?


AHA! Think we found your real issue! IIRC, the MX series were inverted on the inputs - meaning ring was +.. instead of tip! Here is a recent quote link for Bob Lee of QSC:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/318786/33571/0// /360/#msg_318786
Either that, or you're inverting the signal somewhere else.. and the MX is "making good" on the real problem!
FWIW, I have enjoyed PLX amps on subs immensely for the last 9 years, and have found them to be adequate to great, provided you use heavy gauge speaker lines, and also heavy-as-practical AC line is a big plus as well.
Seriously, I don't think you are having a PLX problem,, but rather, something else is inverted in the polarity in your system. Try putting the 3402 back in , and inverting the speaker polarity to see if that may cause a return to life as well.
Regards,
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Mike Butler,
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Dascott Technologies, LLC

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2008, 09:34:35 am »

Hello,

Yes I'm making the appropriate compensation for proper phasing as I change in and out the MX series with the reversed Ring Tip Sleeve.

Thanks
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Dennis Malek

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2008, 09:40:34 am »

Hello,

I'm compansating for the Ring Tip Sleeve reversal in the MX series.

I have also checked the cabs for proper driver to driver phasing.

I believe I have checked it all.  The PLX-3402's are sonic-ly poor on the low end with comparison to the MX Series.  So much so, that it was easy to tell something was a miss when I first connected.

But Now does this mean they can be repaired?  Or is this just the way they are and not broken?
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Dennis Malek

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2008, 09:56:54 am »

Hi again,

Sorry I did not respond completely to your note.

I have been up one side and down the other testing to pin point the problem with my system.

I have confirmed speaker cab. wiring polarities.  I have confirmed stereo right to left channel phasing is correct.  I understand the MX Series signal input reversal on the Ring Tip Sleeve and make the appropriate compensation as I switch the amps in and out.

Changing the amp out was the last thing I did.  I had done everything else previously.

Speaker cable is 12 AWG Oxygen Free Copper and matched lengths 25 FT long.

120 VAC power for the amps is stiff.  Each amp has a dedicated 20 AMP breaker.  I do have 12 AWG 50 FT power leads?  Could this be an issue?

Please keep in mind that this is a Playback System for CD's and NOT live.  I must live with the mix on the CD therefore I chose strong recordings with elevated bass sections and kick drum response for system testing.  When playing the system with the PLX-03402's, the bass response is mud.  Loud as hell, but the clean kick drum is missing.  All I do is replace the two PLX-4302's with MX-1500A's, un-invert the tops, and Presto Clean Bass and Kick Drum.  

Somebody please tell me what I'm missing?

I sincerely appreciate any and all input.  In parallel, I'm contacting QSC for their take on this situation.

Dennis
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Dennis Malek

Mike {AB} Butler

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2008, 10:09:39 am »

Dennis,
Thanks for all the information. All I can tell you is that I'm not convinced that the 3402 is the issue.. though, if it does have a defect, borrowing another 3402 from somewhere and testing it in the system should suss that out.
All I can tell you is that 9 years ago, I bought a PLX 1602 to replace a very decent "linear supply" amp (which was still working properly). The difference in bass performance by the 1602 was night and day better!
So, I hear from some folks that SMPS amps like the PLX don't have the bass performance that Heavier Iron and Caps units do. I guess I'm a skeptic in the other direction - I have yet to see where the PLX is dramatically poorer in bass response - unless something else is dramatically wrong..
Regards,
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Mike Butler,
Principal, Technology and Operations,
Dascott Technologies, LLC

Dave Rickard

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2008, 01:19:22 am »

Mike {AB} Butler wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 08:09

Dennis,
Thanks for all the information. All I can tell you is that I'm not convinced that the 3402 is the issue.. though, if it does have a defect, borrowing another 3402 from somewhere and testing it in the system should suss that out.
All I can tell you is that 9 years ago, I bought a PLX 1602 to replace a very decent "linear supply" amp (which was still working properly). The difference in bass performance by the 1602 was night and day better!
So, I hear from some folks that SMPS amps like the PLX don't have the bass performance that Heavier Iron and Caps units do. I guess I'm a skeptic in the other direction - I have yet to see where the PLX is dramatically poorer in bass response - unless something else is dramatically wrong..
Regards,


+1.  I use 3002's without the issues you describe here.  

Dennis, Kudos for your methodical work so far.  

I agree with Mike: find a surrogate PLX to borrow and see what happens before going much further.
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Dave
Yorkville dealer

"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."

"If you don't have good stuff at each end of the signal chain, (mics and speakers) what you use in between is just turd polish."--Dave Dermont
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