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Author Topic: Achieving Clean Kick Drum  (Read 19732 times)

Mike {AB} Butler

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 03:22:57 pm »

Dennis,
Don't know if you followed, but Ivan makes the point that a clean kick is not just a single band or fundamental note.. there are overtones that go all the way up the scale. Some people define a clean kick as being the click of the beater (mid hi to hi freqs). Others want a lot of Thamp from the pedal (upper mids), and some say it's the absence of mid lows that make the definition improved. And yes, adjusting any of these on your prerecorded music will have a possible deleterious effect on the other instruments / vocals that occupy the same space - unless you like it, of course..  Mad
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Mike Butler,
Principal, Technology and Operations,
Dascott Technologies, LLC

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 03:38:23 pm »

Thank you for your comments.  I really do appreciate everyones comments and listen with open ears.

I do indeed understand what you say about multiple frequencies being required in combination and I can appreciate that.

Now with that said, is the challenge un-accomplishable?  Is not possible to play a well recorded CD and accent the low end so as to give that live sound presents?  And of course I would like to do it with only 4 boxes, two subs and two tops.

I have had much better success in the past with much lower wattage and horn loaded subs.  Maybe this is what the doctor ordered?  Your Thoughts.

Come On.......
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Dennis Malek

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2008, 03:53:47 pm »

Thanks Mike

Both of yours and Ivan's explanations make complete sense to me.

Now I just hate to give up on a project especially if I'm told it can't be done.

For easy of communication I have been saying "Kick Drum" but as many have pointed out there is much more than just Kick Drum for great sound.  I want to achieve sound that when folks hear it they say, That's the best damn DJ system I have ever heard.

I suppose I was naive to think that a couple double 18" cabs with 3400 watts on each along with my existing DJ rig would give me the sound I was looking for.

Thanks, Dennis
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Dennis Malek

Mike {AB} Butler

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2008, 04:47:19 pm »

Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 17 March 2008 15:53


For easy of communication I have been saying "Kick Drum" but as many have pointed out there is much more than just Kick Drum for great sound.  I want to achieve sound that when folks hear it they say, That's the best damn DJ system I have ever heard.

I suppose I was naive to think that a couple double 18" cabs with 3400 watts on each along with my existing DJ rig would give me the sound I was looking for.


In searching for a holy grail of better sound, there are so many things that help: flatter frequency response, better headroom, better acoustical environment, and also setting things up properly, dialing them in properly, THEN finally creating a mix that is what others can acknowledge as being pleasant.
The sad fact is that I have only heard 2 DJ's in my 34 years that were really GOOD.. the rest all felt that "louder was better" - even at the expense of people's hearing, sound quality, and better music. Distortion because they don't stay within the limits of the system.. and boomy bass.. because MidBass seems to be the thing that so many want in their sound. You avoid those 2 things.. and keep a nice listenable balance up.. I would gladly add you to that small list. (BTW, I'm not saying other DJ's can't sound good.. just that I've not heard very many!) Razz
I'm not a DJ.. just a live-audio guy.. but, IF I had Double 18 cabs with 3600W behind them.. no, waitaminnit, I'm at 3200 myself for my subs..  Very Happy THAT gives me enough to maybe do a couple hundred peeps tops.. without giving up too much in sound quality.  Cool  
Regards,
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Mike Butler,
Principal, Technology and Operations,
Dascott Technologies, LLC

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2008, 06:10:43 pm »

Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 17 March 2008 15:53

 I want to achieve sound that when folks hear it they say, That's the best damn DJ system I have ever heard.



The REAL question is what do you mean by "the best".  In any world-especially DJ, that takes on MANY MANY different meanings.  Loudest, cleanest, lowest, most accurate, most pleasing to listen to and on and on.

Different people look for different things, you are not going to please all of them.  Yes there are extremes, but you will find if you search hear people talk about how distortion is what some people are looking for (and they determine that is what is "good" Shocked )and for others it is all about accuracy.

For "the best" in my book it would be a system that has a good linear transfer with flat response down to at least 30Hz and can get loud without seeming to be loud.

Others could care less about that and simply want a system to "sound" loud and kick you in the chest.  

Very different systems
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 08:38:10 am »

I understand your comments on DJ's and I have experienced the same.  Far and few between that really care about the sound.  Now I, on the other hand can provide seamless segways all night but if the sound is not right all is lost in my book.  I need no critics because I'm my worst critic.  I tweak each track after completing the track to track transition recognizing this is required to provide the best quality sound for that tracks recording.  I do not DJ behind the speakers for this reason.
Now back to the problem at hand.
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Dennis Malek

Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 08:57:32 am »

I understand what you say Sir.

Getting the best DJ sound system I thought would be a fairly easy thing to do as most DJ's really don't care about sound.  

I just thought if I was to take a CD recording that was recorded well with good EQ kick and bass (as recognize at low volumes in automobile) and cranked it up on a quality sound system it would sound good.  (I will not say "sound the same")  
After all, the blend of frequencies required to provide accented kick has already been accomplished, boosted, and lay-ed down on the CD track recording.
What is required in the sound system to get it to reproduce whats already recorded on the CD and can be recognized by listening on other playback equipment?

I really like your comment about needing more talent in the monitors.
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Dennis Malek

peter.golde

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 10:34:35 am »

Finding the car audio quality of sound with speakers outside the car at high spl's is a tall task. The auto's advantage is a pressurized cabin, giving a nice fat bass tone with plenty of kick.
To attempt to do this outside the car, you need a lot of boxes with a lot of power. I have found (properly designed) horn loaded boxes come the closest to the clarity and thump you get in a car, and the more I build and put up against front loaded boxes, the more I am convinced. High efficiency and high power both make for a clean system with plenty of kick. Of course, all bets are off with garbage program material, I hear a big difference on my system when dj selection is not so hot. The room, and speaker placement, and tuning, also have a huge impact on sound quality.
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Dennis Malek

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 01:12:14 pm »

I hear ya on the auto sound in a closed cabin.  I actually tune for the best bass response by opening and closing one window.  Make a huge difference.

I believe I may need to go back to bass horns to get closer to the bass response I'm looking for in my DJ system.

Thanks very much for your experiences.
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Dennis Malek

Michael 'Bink' Knowles

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Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2008, 01:27:10 pm »

Dennis Malek wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 10:12

...I believe I may need to go back to bass horns to get closer to the bass response I'm looking for in my DJ system...


There's where your choice puts you on one or the other side of a high fence. A lot of people enjoy dancing and listening to front loaded, ported subwoofers. In those boxes, the output from the front loaded paper driver is distinctly different in tone and character than the output from the ports; the two add up in a chaos of wave impulses. I call it the massage effect, where the dancer feels pummeled in a good way. Horn subwoofers (in general) do not have this massage effect; their output waveform preserves the source impulse to a greater degree (they have less distortion) which may or may not sound as good on the dancefloor depending on the particular recording.

If you have the chance, go listen to a sound system that has horn subwoofers and see how that works for the crowd. Try and find a system and a venue that match what your gigs are like. It's a big decision.

-Bink
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles
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