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[James Drake]

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Since digital is not sine waves... it is actually square waves. It doesn't create a Fourier Theorem it just thinks to itself: "If I was a complex wave what would I do right now?"

No. Digital summing is ideal summing plus an error. This error will manifest itself in different ways depending on many things. In a well designed system it should be white noise.

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This is the reason why stereo summing buses on DAWs, when you do a bounce out, sounds nothing like your mix... digital just makes it up...

No. A faster-than-realtime bounce should sound identical to the real-time mix. You will get differences in ProTools because of other time-dependant factors. It seems that automation is not followed the same between bouncing and mixing. This will cause the bounce to sound different, because the mix is different, not because the summing maths is different.

I always record to a master track when using a DAW, but for logical, workflow reasons, not soninc ones.

[Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)]

Analog summing in a big console is not as simple as it looks.  You've got a lot of possibly-variable impedances connected, a fairly long bus area, and a need for huge headroom while minimizing noise.  It's probably easier to "do it right" in digital than in analog for a large-format console.

[HarryBrillJr.]

I completely agree with this.  A 350ft snake is not good for sound.  Perhaps the Midas is handling the long cable run better.  Maybe a different impedance at the input?

[Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)]

Greg Spydell wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 06:06

Since digital is not sine waves... it is actually square waves. It doesn't create a Fourier Theorem it just thinks to itself: "If I was a complex wave what would I do right now?"

Digital is not square waves.  Digital is a representation of the real-world signal.  Operations in the digital realm such as attenuation and summing are very simple - it's just math.  One thing I'd heard second-hand about early Pro Tools is that it just did a sloppy job on the summing, which is why it got the reputation of needing outside analog summing to sound good.  This is not complicated stuff, now that we've got enough affordable processing horsepower to pull it off without making compromises.

Personally modern digital sounds fine to me.  For me, doing mostly acoustic music, it's great - I get out exactly what went in.  The argument of which sounds better is getting into the audiophile realm, in that people are finding that they like certain sound but then making up completely pseudo-scientific theories as to why.  A fair amount of audiophile gear isn't accurate - it will have various distortion and frequency response anomolies that the owner prefers over an accurate system.  But often enough the owner of that stuff will insist to his deathbed that it sounds good because it's "accurate".  Be honest - how many (photos of) super high end audiophile systems have you seen in box-shaped and acoustically untreated living rooms?

[Greg Rosenkrans]

Hi guys The Midas handles a long cable run with no issue's. Our Xl8 here at Big Mo Pro is the Most incredible system backbone and tool we have ever seen. We couldn't be more pleased with its performance. Its interconnect cover long distances either by fiber or Cat 6  
Cheers, Greg

[Andy Peters]

Greg Spydell wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 05:06

Hmmm... I don't see how digital summing is actually better because it doesn't fall under the umbrella of Superposition. Analog consoles have true summing because you have a voltage summing... now how can a voltage sum fall under Superposition if it is not a vector quantity... the answer is simply with the Electric Field (which is a vector) that makes up Electric Potential Energy. Analog voltage summing thus falls under the true summing which is that of a Fourier Theorem... a true summing of sine waves. Since digital is not sine waves... it is actually square waves. It doesn't create a Fourier Theorem it just thinks to itself: "If I was a complex wave what would I do right now?"

What the HELL are you talking about?

You've managed to COMPLETELY confuse yourself.

You have confused the digital signaling (which is usually, but doesn't have to be, a square wave), with the numerical representation of the signal inside the DSP, which is just that: a number.

Please, stop before you hurt yourself.

-a

[Craig Montgomery]

Andy, don't you know?  Digital is a square wave that thinks to itself.  Come on, get with the program.

[Tamas Tako]

Well, many possibly reasons were told here, and every one could be the one, you heard as the big difference.
One thing I have tested is: The Heritage series colours the sound quite heavily. The PM5d colours the sound almost not at all.
SO If you are the type of sound engineer, who are looking for a console that colours the sound (and now I don't think EQ, Insert etc.), you will find the H3k to be THE console.
If you are the guy, who hate coloured sound (again not EQ insert, etc.) You will love the PM5d.
They are like Fire and water!

The colouration of long analogue cable runs works similar.
Don't forget, if you use a console in the Monitor, you surely have a mutch shorter input multicore, which can make a difference.

SO becouse the digital snake the Digi Venue is a really good choiche not to mention the plugins it can offer.
From this point of view a DSP5d controlled from a PM5d should sound even better than the plain PM5d.

At the end I MUST tell my opinion however, which makes the picture more complex:

The incoming material (the Band), and the Mixing engineer (ear, knowledge) mask almost every time this differences between verfy good and just good equipment. Not to mention the sometimes poorly used/tuned PA systems...


Best,

Tamas

[Greg Spydell]

lol... not square wave in that sense... not like how you think about it... where you have a huge rms value and TONS of thermal energy... hence the speaker is destroyed. Digital signals are transmitted with a series of square waves... varying from 0-5 volts. Digital HAS to be a square wave because this is how the bits are read. The digital device reads the leading edge of the square wave... what happens do to things like capacitance, (which actually take time for the voltage to reach a max value... called the RC time constant... any time you have resistance and capacitance) is the leading edge of that square wave gets warped... and thus it isn't read properly. Digital isn't linear and neither is analog... every time you have a digital transduction there is ALWAYS quantization error... but you also get changes in analog.

But as far as summing.... TRUE summing... which is a vector sum, as in The Principle of Superposition, digital can't do it.... look it's not fairy dust in these machines that makes them work. Digital is a mimic of analog... thats why there is Sample Rate (corresponding to frequency) and Bit Depth ( corresponding to amplitude).

Digital is made from algorithms... meaning "IF this DO THIS"... or "IF THIS HAPPENS DO THIS"... anyone who has studied electrical engineering understand that this is done with logic gates... the algorithms are designed to mimic analog...

Thats all I am trying to say  

[Fred Merkle]

Greg Spydell wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 15:49

Digital signals are transmitted with a series of square waves... varying from 0-5 volts.

Er.  Not necessarily.  There are many ways to transmit "digital signals".  But, this has nothing to do with a digital summing bus in an audio console.

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Digital HAS to be a square wave because this is how the bits are read. The digital device reads the leading edge of the square wave...

Okay.  Edge triggering.  This has nothing to do with a digital summing bus in an audio console.

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what happens do to things like capacitance, (which actually take time for the voltage to reach a max value... called the RC time constant... any time you have resistance and capacitance) is the leading edge of that square wave gets warped... and thus it isn't read properly.

Right.  Too much capacitance in a digital transmission line can erode the clock/data.  But, this will result in bit errors or data being not read at all.  This has nothing to do with a digital summing bus in an audio console.

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Digital isn't linear and neither is analog... every time you have a digital transduction there is ALWAYS quantization error... but you also get changes in analog.

Math is math.  Digital quantization error, which we can model as distortion, can be made far more negligible in a digital summing bus.  Analog has to deal with non-linearities of transistors.  A digital bus could be 48+bits--which is 289dB of dynamic range.  So, quantization error will be the error of the LSB.  We can all agree that noise 200dB down is inconsequential.

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But as far as summing.... TRUE summing... which is a vector sum, as in The Principle of Superposition, digital can't do it...

Sure it can.

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look it's not fairy dust in these machines that makes them work. Digital is a mimic of analog... thats why there is Sample Rate (corresponding to frequency) and Bit Depth ( corresponding to amplitude).

Yup.  What does this have to do with the summing bus of a digital console?  Whatever "damage" done by sampling has already been acomplished by the time we hit a summing bus.

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Digital is made from algorithms... meaning "IF this DO THIS"... or "IF THIS HAPPENS DO THIS"... anyone who has studied electrical engineering understand that this is done with logic gates... the algorithms are designed to mimic analog...

Not exactly.  Digital processing is just linear algebra.

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Thats all I am trying to say

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[ProSoundWeb Community]