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[Justice C. Bigler]

For those of you working the smaller local band and community arts festival type gigs: Is it possible (or even probable) to get your rates low enough to remain profitable and attractive to customers if you rent ALL of your gear, for every show from a third party?

I know that it's not uncommon for those at the high end of the industry to rent the gear for their corporate and large festival and touring shows from rental companies. Is this a workable business model for those at the other end of the industry?

Or does this sector of the market require that you own at least a basic mic, speaker, and console set up so that you don't have to pay the third party rental rates?

Since I am in the process of selling off a bunch of my gear to pay for school, this has me wondering if working like this is even possible. Union work is kind of thin right now, and none of the bigger local production companies here seem interested in hiring any extra hands OR ears.

[_______]

Justice,

Here's the perspective of but one "low end" guy.

Yes, it is possible to rent everything, all the time.  The tricky part, as you probably know, is finding clients willing to foot the bill for the rental AND your labor.

The only times I remember making out well with a 100% rented system were special occasion one-offs, like New Year's Eve.  I just don't think I would want to go through the process of renting entire systems on a regular basis, however, for a couple of reasons.

Availability: Small rental companies only have so much gear, and do you want to have to call them first, every time, before you say "yes" to a client?

Time: People are always calling at the last minute, and this goes back to the availability factor.  You should really call at least a few days in advance if you want to rent an entire system.

Quality: Small rental companies, in my experience, don't have the kind of gear that I would want to base my reputation on.  Especially if I was relying on them 365 days a year.  I've held my breath many a time hoping that the old, beat up amp that I had no choice but to rent would make it through the gig.  The stress multiplies with each rented component.  I should add that I spit polish my own gear and sing it lullabies every night.

As a small time sound provider, renting should have one place in my world: to pinch hit for inoperable gear.

If I could give you one more piece of advice it would be to at least hang on to your cables, mic cables in particular.  Its just a hunch I have.

Perhaps your options are more numerous than mine, but around here the rental gear available to the little guy is a bit dubious.

-Matt

P.S. If you haven't already done this, start introducing yourself to the folks who rent SR gear in your area.  Get a copy of their inventory, familiarize yourself with it, and keep it handy.

[Steve Hurt]

For 90% of the gigs out there, no.

Unless you have a REALLY good relationship with the rental house.

[Jake Scudder]

Perhaps revisiting your goals and desires in this business is in order.  As I've said here before, I admire the guys that bust ass with a trailer full of gear and run all over the place spending way too much time making way too little money for the effort.  It really speaks to the passion they have for their business.  It's not for me.  

I'd much rather mix on gear that someone else has gone in debt for or at the very least is responsible for maintaining.  Perhaps looking for a house gig or freelance opportunities makes more sense given your situation.  Sure it can be scary not knowing for sure where the next gig is coming from (like after mid-March for me) but if you are good you will work.  If you aren't good?  Well . . . back to that revisiting your goals thing.

Jake

[Mac Kerr]

Steve Hurt wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 19:24

For 90% of the gigs out there, no. Unless you have a REALLY good relationship with the rental house.

Renting all your gear from the same shop is how you develop a really good relationship with a rental house. Granted I work in a different environment, but I know plenty of guys who provide gear for events all over the area, without owning any. They do preproduction, and they fulfill the requirements of whatever event they are working on. Because of the relationship with the shop that this engenders they are able to offer competitive pricing.

Mac

[Andy Zimmerman]

For the shows I did, I think that renting even half of the gear for a show would mean that not only would I be doing the show for free but I might even end up spending money out of my pocket because of it. I did rent a larger console for a few shows and this cut into my setup time substantially - the "rental house" was always on the other side of town, and its not like they are standing around with the stuff at the door waiting for you to show up. Since I live out of town and work nights, returning the gear the next day is one more hassle. This will differ depending on where you live and what you rent, but around here I wouldn't even think about renting more than a piece or two for a show. Don't even get me started on the joys of renting a truck or trailer

[Tim McCulloch]

Justice-

I suppose it depends on what your rates are like now, and what you'd pay for rental gear.  A couple of decades back in the last century, when I thought I wanted to own a sound company, I shot myself in the foot with an "attractive" rate that I was never successful in raising.  If I'd been in the situation you're describing, I'd have been paying to play.  Depending on your clients that may not be the case these days... but if you're talking about local acts in nightclubs I'd be surprised if too many could make that nut.  Tulsa is a different world, though, and I don't live there.  You need to ask some local providers.  I think you should try to keep a decent mic kit, a few DIs, and cables.  It's unfortunate you have to part with your 01v96 because you could arrange for a delivered stacks and racks rental.

Every production company in Oklahoma was crazy last year with state centennial celebrations, festivals, and theatre work.  I think you were in Utah for most of that.  From what my friends are telling me, things are slack all over the state in the wake of a year's festivities.  That will change come warmer weather.

Part of what sucks about production in our part of the country is the lack of winter events, Justice.  Our city did NOTHING for NYE, but Oklahoma City had Flaming Lips as part of their NYE extravagana...  and you're right about IATSE work in our markets in Jan & Feb, it's pretty thin.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Mike Christy]

Mac Kerr wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 19:54

Steve Hurt wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 19:24 For 90% of the gigs out there, no. Unless you have a REALLY good relationship with the rental house. Renting all your gear from the same shop is how you develop a really good relationship with a rental house. Granted I work in a different environment, but I know plenty of guys who provide gear for events all over the area, without owning any. They do preproduction, and they fulfill the requirements of whatever event they are working on. Because of the relationship with the shop that this engenders they are able to offer competitive pricing. Mac

So, basically, they are in a round about way freelancing or contracting with/for the rental houses. The gear guys get their ROI through these "providers". These providers have no overhead, but do the footwork of obtaining gigs. Kind of synonymous with a Ford, Hertz, and a family on vacation in Orlando model...

I can do that!

[Adam Whetham]

Justice C. Bigler wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 16:25

For those of you working the smaller local band and community arts festival type gigs: Is it possible (or even probable) to get your rates low enough to remain profitable and attractive to customers if you rent ALL of your gear, for every show from a third party? I know that it's not uncommon for those at the high end of the industry to rent the gear for their corporate and large festival and touring shows from rental companies. Is this a workable business model for those at the other end of the industry? Or does this sector of the market require that you own at least a basic mic, speaker, and console set up so that you don't have to pay the third party rental rates? Since I am in the process of selling off a bunch of my gear to pay for school, this has me wondering if working like this is even possible. Union work is kind of thin right now, and none of the bigger local production companies here seem interested in hiring any extra hands OR ears.

If you wanted to do some of the bar gigs around here that we get calls for, Hell, I would rent the gear to  you for half price if you could show me you were competent, responsible and knew what you were doing. Up here there issue isn't the lack of bands and venue's. its the lack of decent PA's, and people that know how to run them. I work the day job at the shop and the weekends on our show's. The last thing I want to do is go out to a bar and run a band at the end of my week and not be able to drink. I do a few on occasion, but around here bands do Thursday,Friday, Saturday night show's in the same places... I can't do 3 nights strait of the same set's of the same band. (That and Jam bands, and Country/Rock covers aren't my idea of entertainment either)

I've been waiting for that person to come along.... Make my life simple.

[Mike_Monte]

Hello, If I had to rent everything, I wouldn't.... unless I was doing a house sound gig or something steady on someone else's gear every week.  I (for one) would need to keep my skills sharp.   In my case, my sound gigs are mostly in the summer (outdoor) with a few indoor events during the winter months.  I have one coming up next weekend (after a 4 month no sound gig stretch) and I will check things (route things, check for loose connections, bad wires, etc.) out in my garage during the week.  
Get a rental list from a local provider/rental house.  When you get called for a gig, tell the prospective client that you have to check on the date, get the details and tell him that you will call him back in an hour or so... When you bid on the gig, add it all together and put something in there for your trouble.  Call him back and see what transpires. If I were you, I'd at least keep a mixer... just my TCW.    

[E. Lee Dickinson]

Owning gear is expensive. Acquisition cost, maintenance cost, insurance, storage.  While it would stand to reason that by eliminating those costs you could parlay the savings into rentals, the truth is that the rental house is going to amortize all of those costs out into the rentals.

I still think you can make it work, but the math is very simple. Take your average gig, price the rental to our favorite supplier, and see what you have left.

We own quite a variety of sound systems, but we don't own a large concert array system. I did the same math you are doing and found that, on average, I can get a 10 or more percent discount from my supplier on gear and production staff, I can mark it up 5% or so to the client, and make more money than I would have made if I owned the gear.

My supplier does more concerts than I do, they do them more efficiently and better, so they make good money when you spread it out over more gigs. More gigs for them, less gear to own for me, more money all around.

[Bob Leonard]

Justice,
Renting gear can be a solution, but seldom a money maker. In the long run the cost for the rental generally eats up the profit unless, as has been pointed out, the gig is large enough and pays enough to compensate for the additional costs. The equipment I use for my band is all top of the line and reliable. That has always been my goal, to purchase the best equipment available for the job knowing it would last long enough through hard and constant use to pay for itself over time. I also run sound using the same gear, which is icing on the cake to me. It's a chance to relax and let the system earn some extra money.

I rent gear and trucks for larger gigs usually over 500-600 people, but in these cases the equipment always pays for itself. I use the following rules as my keys to success;

1. Does the gig require/justify the additional gear, or would it be a just nice to have item.

2. Will the additional rental costs be covered by the additional income generated and will there be an additional profit?

3. Can I rent the gear from an established and trusted source.

4. Have I worked with this source in the past and can I depend on receiving working quality equipment and service/support if needed?

5. Can I return the equipment the next day and not suffer additional charges.

6. If there is a failure will I have to pay for the repair?

I would think you might look at gear rental as if you were leasing a car. Nice low payment, but in the end it's still not yours and the option to upgrade doesn't exist.

[gordon mcgregor]

I aree with Bob, if the show is big enough and/or has the budget then I'll rent, I'm lucky in that there is an excellent rental shop locally. If I were to depend on rented gear then I would have to market myself to shows/events that would allow me to charge a living wage, this can be done as Matt has said, however the way you go about bidding and what you bid for would have to change.
Gordon