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[Mike Colbran]

So let me get this straight... It almost everybody agrees that the only reason why everybody like the M7CL is due to everything the console has to offer other then sound quality. So have we reached a point that we do not really care how or rigs sounds?? and that we will subsitude good sound for plug and play ease?

I recently bought 16 itech 6000's and just compared them to Lab Gruppen and all I can say is I have some iTech 6000's and some XTi 4000's for sale! it does not matter how I did the comparison, I am convinced that the Lab's sound better to my ears and I have to continue to improve my rig to sound good, but still stay profitable which is a fine line and very hard to do.

So all-in-all it looks like the Series 5 or MH3/4 might be the way for me to go, plus a rack full of processing and a BIG monster console looks way cooler then a little M7CL that looks like it should be running the lighting rig!

Now I have to think about a Series 5 vs PM4000.

[Jamie Taylor]

Mike Colbran wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 20:02

So let me get this straight... It almost everybody agrees that the only reason why everybody like the M7CL is due to everything the console has to offer other then sound quality. So have we reached a point that we do not really care how or rigs sounds?? and that we will subsitude good sound for plug and play ease?

No, we've reached a point where you can weigh sound against featureset.

The M7CL doesn't sound bad at all.  I'd even go so far as to say that the only people who notice are audio engineers, not the people who matter (the audience) or the people paying the bills (the promoters).

[Steve Payne]

Mike -
 As I said in my post below, if you are driven by audio quality and you want to spend under or near $20k US, do yourself a favor and check out the APB Spectra consoles.  

[Guy Morris]

I agree with JT on weighing up featuresets etc. Audiences will only notice bad sound but rarely what desk is being used. Having both a Midas and an M7 I find both sound great and they offer different experiences, I have toyed with just having 2 M7s but keeping the Midas with all its outboard offers even more choices. When space is premium or stairs and no lift its always the M7 so best to consider what your main gigs are if corporate or theatre its the  M7  for me, for bands the Midas and the M7 on Monitors.
As with all audio its only as good as the weakest link  and any major brand name desks will deliver, I'd worry more about the Amps,speaker cable and the xlrs being used!  Ditto on the Lab Gruppen just got the FP10000 into stock it weighs less than my Hifi amp its witchcraft!

Guy

[Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)]

Mike Colbran wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 04:02

So let me get this straight... It almost everybody agrees that the only reason why everybody like the M7CL is due to everything the console has to offer other then sound quality. So have we reached a point that we do not really care how or rigs sounds?? and that we will subsitude good sound for plug and play ease?

Not at all.  Everybody agrees that the M7CL sounds plenty good enough for pro audio applications, and the feature set makes it a no-brainer in many situations.

I did a gig a couple months ago with an LS9.  Good-sounding room, good speakers (KV2 EX12 system), good mics, and great bluegrass and jazz musicians playing acoustic instruments.  You know what?  It sounded great.  Nobody complained about the sound, many gave compliments.  Not one person said anything about how they didn't like using a digital console.

[Steve Payne]

Jamie Taylor wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 07:04

Mike Colbran wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 20:02 So let me get this straight... It almost everybody agrees that the only reason why everybody like the M7CL is due to everything the console has to offer other then sound quality. So have we reached a point that we do not really care how or rigs sounds?? and that we will subsitude good sound for plug and play ease? No, we've reached a point where you can weigh sound against featureset. The M7CL doesn't sound bad at all.  I'd even go so far as to say that the only people who notice are audio engineers, not the people who matter (the audience) or the people paying the bills (the promoters).

Hi Jamie,
 OK, I'm putting my flame suit on before I even start.  From where I sit, this attitude has pretty much taken over our industry.  It's the slippery slope.  How many "it doesn't sound bad at all and no one can tell the difference but the engineer" pieces of gear can one string together before the rig sounds, well, um, doesn't sound bad...?  Lot's of flexibility, tons of processing power, small foot print, doesn't sound bad at all.  There you have it.  Put on the scale.  Take your choice.  
 Aw shit, this whole topic just wears me out.  Give the fucking accountants paint brushes and see what we get for art.  I know, I'm over the top, sorry. It just makes me sad and mad to see the business I love turn into such a.... business.  
 
I better go take my meds now.  

[Mike Southard]

Steve Payne wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 10:44

Jamie Taylor wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 07:04 Mike Colbran wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 20:02 So let me get this straight... It almost everybody agrees that the only reason why everybody like the M7CL is due to everything the console has to offer other then sound quality. So have we reached a point that we do not really care how or rigs sounds?? and that we will subsitude good sound for plug and play ease? No, we've reached a point where you can weigh sound against featureset. The M7CL doesn't sound bad at all.  I'd even go so far as to say that the only people who notice are audio engineers, not the people who matter (the audience) or the people paying the bills (the promoters). Hi Jamie,  OK, I'm putting my flame suit on before I even start.  From where I sit, this attitude has pretty much taken over our industry.  It's the slippery slope.  How many "it doesn't sound bad at all and no one can tell the difference but the engineer" pieces of gear can one string together before the rig sounds, well, um, doesn't sound bad...?  Lot's of flexibility, tons of processing power, small foot print, doesn't sound bad at all.  There you have it.  Put on the scale.  Take your choice.    Aw shit, this whole topic just wears me out.  Give the fucking accountants paint brushes and see what we get for art.  I know, I'm over the top, sorry. It just makes me sad and mad to see the business I love turn into such a.... business.     I better go take my meds now.

Steve I hear you.  And I'm not doubting that the APB sounds great, and in some cases probably better than the M7.  But how many of the people who have worked on your system have listened to the APB and the M7 side by side in the same venue?

I would like objective data before I admit to selling out purely for profit with no regard for quality.  I believe, and will continue to believe, that an objective double blind test between the two consoles in real world circumstances would not yield the absolutely conclusive results you assume.

[Peter Verkerk]

Same thing over-here in the Netherlands: every time we have the M7 in use we getting compliments about the sound & every technician working with it for the first time want the next gig the M7 again..  
For us this M7 is the best investment we did past year.., so when you say "It just makes me sad and mad to see the business I love turn into such a.... business. "  this has something to do with creating the perfect sound in the field, but nothing with the LS9 or M7 consoles, they are just very good and stable(!) in this price-range.

greetings,
Peter

[Stuart Hogg]

Mike Colbran wrote on Tue, 22 January 2008 10:02

It almost everybody agrees that the only reason why everybody like the M7CL is due to everything the console has to offer other then sound quality.

I've not had the chance to do an A/B between digital and analogue consoles, but for me the big gain with digital is more time soundchecking and less time patching outboard. I'm pretty sure that, irrespective of the pros and cons of any particular desk, when it comes to the ultimate sound quality in the normal working conditions I find myself under, digital is far better.

If I was touring with a national act, with plenty time to set up and soundcheck, and an A2 to do all my patching, my answer might be different. But for everyone regional sized and under, digital is where it's at, IMHO.

[Jason Ellis]

All great points so far! Here's a thought I just had from Stuart's post:

Let's assume that the APB sounds better overall, just for argument - but you have to spend 3 times as long patching and setting it up

Would you rather loss (what small percentage of quality) by using the M7cl instead - but could you not give the audience a better experience because you were able to take more time listening and tweaking and less time patching with the M7?


IMHO - digital gives us more of what costs the most - time - if you can recall the last show - maintaining show to show consistency without having to drag a personal analog console around - that to me makes both great business sense and good sens for great sound.

The audience expects to hear a similar performance of a show from venue to venue - I believe digital helps the consistency - perhaps at a small audible loss of absolute quality, which is offset by the additional time and effort that can be added into the final product

Just my .02

[ProSoundWeb Community]