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Author Topic: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps  (Read 5144 times)

Daniel Mauric

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PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« on: April 20, 2014, 07:19:10 am »

Hi guys, my first post here.

So we're a 5 piece rock band with 2 guitars, bass, drums and a singer. We're considering switching to electronic drums and using software amp sims for guitars and bass, so basically going all direct through sound interface and laptop.

Now this sort of set up is going to be a big change and raises ton of issues that do not exist in traditional setup with acoustic drums and amps, but I would want to focus on PA here.

So, the clear advantage of this setup is absolutely no sound from the stage (we plan to use wired IEM for monitoring). But the challenge is to get the appropriate PA.

We mostly play small pubs with maybe 50-100 people max, rarely at full capacity. Volume wise it should be sufficient to match a live band, we'll probably usually run it lower than that.
Portability is also a major issue, so lightweight tops and subs would be great.

I am not sure what sort of setup would you guys recommend, but I was thinking a 10" or 12" top and two lightweight subs. So basically the features we want are sound quality and light weight.

I guess the main question is if we want 2 subs, how small/lightweight can they be but still provide enough power/low level response ?
Can two 10" subs such as say http://www.thomann.de/gb/hk_audio_elements_e110_sub_a.htm provide that ?

Regarding tops ideally I would like to have something like RCF NX12 SMA, so that we can also use them as monitors on gigs where the house PA is sufficient. I know they have a switch for monitor/mains mode, but am not sure how good would they be used as mains in our situation.
 
Let me know if you want me to provide more info.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 07:32:32 am by Daniel Mauric »
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 10:56:56 am »

I don't see a 10" 250w sub being much use outside a home theater, functional PA system level output form this Bose style gear requires stacks of subs and top elements which is just rediculously expensive. IMO your real options start with the EV ZXa1 sub and top for a super portable setup and the next step up from there would be something like a Yamaha DXR 10 or 12 over DXS 15 subs.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 11:02:59 am by Paul G. OBrien »
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Richard Turner

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 09:47:19 pm »

A ballpark budget would be an excellent starting point. No use in suggesting renkus heinz or K array systems at $20k price point

I'm familiar with Yorkville. look at the excusrion systems which are based on a bass bin module which powers 2 small tops also check out the peavey triflex II system, I had 2 of the original crest branded subs the bass module was based on about 8 years ago and for 100 person small room gig they were useable

theres nothing wrong with a 10" sub Ive used several over the years but its more the difference between bass you hear and bass you feel when comapring to a 15" 18" driver
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Looking at retiring. Local PA market has shrank to 2 guys with guitars and bose l1 compacts or expecting full line array and 16 movers on stage for $300... no middle left going back to event DJ stuff, half the work for twice the pay.

Scott Olewiler

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 11:34:09 am »

I don't see a 10" 250w sub being much use outside a home theater, functional PA system level output form this Bose style gear requires stacks of subs and top elements which is just rediculously expensive. IMO your real options start with the EV ZXa1 sub and top for a super portable setup and the next step up from there would be something like a Yamaha DXR 10 or 12 over DXS 15 subs.

I have 2 ZXA1 subs and while they sound great, I don't think they would have enough juice with no live drums or amps behind them. I have sent mine into clipping in just a reinforcement capacity  at volumes I would not consider overly loud. A pair of DXS 12s (which I also own) or DXS 15 is the minimum I would attempt this with.   You might be able to even do it with just one of them.
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If you want to feel more Kick drum turn up the kick drum fader, not the damn subs.

Leo Martin

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 12:06:08 pm »


I am not sure what sort of setup would you guys recommend, but I was thinking a 10" or 12" top and two lightweight subs. So basically the features we want are sound quality and light weight.

I guess the main question is if we want 2 subs, how small/lightweight can they be but still provide enough power/low level response ?
Can two 10" subs such as say http://www.thomann.de/gb/hk_audio_elements_e110_sub_a.htm provide that ?


I have heard the Yamaha DXS12s and 15s and they sound great for lightweight subs on a budget. I would assume the matching top cabs are nice as well and fit well with the subs.
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David Shriver

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 02:37:53 pm »

Hey Daniel,

I mix for a HoW group that did exactly what you are proposing.  They went very high end with a KR402 K-Array system.  Its really an amazing system.  It sets up fast, its light, it has a very low visual.  Its perfect for them and it would be great for you.  At $17,000 its way outside the budget of most people.  They demoed the 202 system as well and it was about $11,000, which is still very expensive but sounded great.

For a more traditional setup I'd tell you to look at QSC K-12s over QSC Ksubs.  2x K12s with 2x Ksubs is going to run in the $4,000 range with poles and cases.  The K12s make great monitors if you don't need them as mains.  You could add a 2nd pair of K12s for bigger shows.

-d

Hi guys, my first post here.

So we're a 5 piece rock band with 2 guitars, bass, drums and a singer. We're considering switching to electronic drums and using software amp sims for guitars and bass, so basically going all direct through sound interface and laptop.

Now this sort of set up is going to be a big change and raises ton of issues that do not exist in traditional setup with acoustic drums and amps, but I would want to focus on PA here.

So, the clear advantage of this setup is absolutely no sound from the stage (we plan to use wired IEM for monitoring). But the challenge is to get the appropriate PA.

We mostly play small pubs with maybe 50-100 people max, rarely at full capacity. Volume wise it should be sufficient to match a live band, we'll probably usually run it lower than that.
Portability is also a major issue, so lightweight tops and subs would be great.

I am not sure what sort of setup would you guys recommend, but I was thinking a 10" or 12" top and two lightweight subs. So basically the features we want are sound quality and light weight.

I guess the main question is if we want 2 subs, how small/lightweight can they be but still provide enough power/low level response ?
Can two 10" subs such as say http://www.thomann.de/gb/hk_audio_elements_e110_sub_a.htm provide that ?

Regarding tops ideally I would like to have something like RCF NX12 SMA, so that we can also use them as monitors on gigs where the house PA is sufficient. I know they have a switch for monitor/mains mode, but am not sure how good would they be used as mains in our situation.
 
Let me know if you want me to provide more info.
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Art Welter

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 03:55:26 pm »

We mostly play small pubs with maybe 50-100 people max, rarely at full capacity. Volume wise it should be sufficient to match a live band, we'll probably usually run it lower than that.

I guess the main question is if we want 2 subs, how small/lightweight can they be but still provide enough power/low level response ?
Can two 10" subs such as say http://www.thomann.de/gb/hk_audio_elements_e110_sub_a.htm provide that ?
Daniel,

Assuming the live bands you are wanting to match don't mic everything up, the loudest sound you are likely to hear is the snare drum, which can be 120-125 dB at one meter midband.

A pair of the HK Audio Elements E110 subs at full power should be able to generate about 117 dB one meter at 50 Hz, about 127 dB around 80 Hz, about the same as most typical unamplified kick drums and smaller bass combo amps do.

The advantage of going all electronic on stage means vocals and other instruments are no longer required to "keep up" with the snare drum, so a full sound can be achieved at much lower volume levels.

That said, a pair of E110 subs are at the minimum level to provide what most young pub dwellers would consider a "rock and roll" experience in a 100 cap club, so are about the limit of how small/lightweight you would want, unless you play to older patrons that prefer to carry on conversations without requiring yelling in each other's ears. If you play for them, more than enough :^).

Art
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John Sabine

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Re: PA for the band with electronic drums and no amps
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 05:13:06 pm »

2 ea Yorkville EF500P Tops and LS801P Subs. About 5500.00 not including cables, stands, etc. and will be more than adequate for what you're describing. The only problem with that system is weight and indeed it will be like hauling a truckload of anvils but will be hard to beat for the price. If you REALLY want light then go with the Yorkville Paraline system but 4 tops and 2 subs will run you about 11k. You could probably cut back to 2 tops and 2 subs and only spend about 7500.00 but you will get less vertical horn coverage from your tops, which depending on the room might be a good thing. I'll be demoing a 2 top/2 sub setup for a local church in the next week or so and can let you know more once I've done that.
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