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Author Topic: Why is Behringer so hated?  (Read 32090 times)

Sam Carlen

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Why is Behringer so hated?
« on: February 18, 2012, 02:06:53 am »

First thing, I know probably because of build quality or longevity and such but seriously, is there ANY bad part about the sound of a Behringer mixer or compressor or EQ? Cause so many people have said to stay away from them but for build reasons. I've owned many Behringer products and NEVER have they broke on me, maybe I'm just lucky but still. I prefer my Behringer EP4000s for my subs instead of a Crown Macrotech, I like the sound better and sounds "tighter". Especially for live bands.
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Matt Errend

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 02:26:36 am »

First thing, I know probably because of build quality or longevity and such but seriously, is there ANY bad part about the sound of a Behringer mixer or compressor or EQ? Cause so many people have said to stay away from them but for build reasons. I've owned many Behringer products and NEVER have they broke on me, maybe I'm just lucky but still. I prefer my Behringer EP4000s for my subs instead of a Crown Macrotech, I like the sound better and sounds "tighter". Especially for live bands.

1. Poor business ethics. Behringer has a history of flat out stealing the designs of their competitor's products. If they don't flat out copy a product, they will borrow heavily from their competitors all the way down to the marketing and product dress.

2. Poor build quality and cheap components. Behringer gear is cheap because it is built cheaply by Chinese factory-city workers using cheap components.

3. Lackluster products. Generally, unless a product has been directly ripped off from another manufacturer (EP series), or they happen to get lucky (DCX2496) their products generally suck. Behringer is always interested moving as many units as possible, not making the highest quality product possible. This means that they compromise in many ways with their products to meet a target price point and consumer. Generally their products do not perform to the level to match their marketing, and are lacking in numerous areas (again to meet the pricepoint).

4. Total lack of after-purchase support. If a Behringer product breaks, their answer is to simply throw it out and buy another one. Need to replace a blown driver? Tough luck. Back power switch? Go f*** yourself and buy a new unit.

Behringer does not make professional level products. They make products targeted at the uninformed church volunteer and weekend warrior that has no budget. Occasionally they will make a product that works, but most of the time they just offer a bottom-barrel option that makes severe compromises in engineering and construction in order to keep the price low.
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Sam Carlen

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 03:03:43 am »

1. Poor business ethics. Behringer has a history of flat out stealing the designs of their competitor's products. If they don't flat out copy a product, they will borrow heavily from their competitors all the way down to the marketing and product dress.

2. Poor build quality and cheap components. Behringer gear is cheap because it is built cheaply by Chinese factory-city workers using cheap components.

3. Lackluster products. Generally, unless a product has been directly ripped off from another manufacturer (EP series), or they happen to get lucky (DCX2496) their products generally suck. Behringer is always interested moving as many units as possible, not making the highest quality product possible. This means that they compromise in many ways with their products to meet a target price point and consumer. Generally their products do not perform to the level to match their marketing, and are lacking in numerous areas (again to meet the pricepoint).

4. Total lack of after-purchase support. If a Behringer product breaks, their answer is to simply throw it out and buy another one. Need to replace a blown driver? Tough luck. Back power switch? Go f*** yourself and buy a new unit.

Behringer does not make professional level products. They make products targeted at the uninformed church volunteer and weekend warrior that has no budget. Occasionally they will make a product that works, but most of the time they just offer a bottom-barrel option that makes severe compromises in engineering and construction in order to keep the price low.
Alright well I see your point. I happen to disagree, not on that they rip off "pro" companies, JBL, Crown, etc. But that they do not meet standards of those companies. I yet again must've gotten lucky but either way, I have had no problem with any Behringer product I own and the one that I did. (Due to user error), I did return it to Behringer and they sent me a brand new one. Actually 2 days ago I just got it. But I know everyone has their opinions, mine is that they aren't such crap as you think. Built cheaply or built efficiently? "Higher quality" brands, are you paying for quality, or a label on the front? With studio I wouldn't go for Behrigner but anything live sound I think it works, and that's what matters. Get's the job done, and no one questions how.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 05:43:17 am »

Matt made some pretty good points, and I doubt you'll find anyone at any level who hasn't at least tried something from Behringer in the past. I have used a number of Behringer products in the past when asked to work on a project. I would Ebay the Behringer piece, run my tests, then re-sell the piece on Ebay. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING I bought either had an issue when I got it or soon after I put it into use. Every one of their compressors I tried was junk before or after, the only piece I bought for myself that I wanted to work was a lighting console, and that failed twice before I gave up on it.

You've been lucky Matt and I wish you continued luck, however, Behringer manufactures products of the lowest quality you'll find. Thier products just can't be trusted, and that's why you won't find them in any rig that's used to put food on the table.

The one exception to the above might be the fisherman in Glouchester and New Bedford who have found that the heavier Behringer products work fairly well as a boat anchor.
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 05:53:34 am »

Alright well I see your point. I happen to disagree, not on that they rip off "pro" companies, JBL, Crown, etc. But that they do not meet standards of those companies. I yet again must've gotten lucky but either way, I have had no problem with any Behringer product I own and the one that I did. (Due to user error), I did return it to Behringer and they sent me a brand new one. Actually 2 days ago I just got it. But I know everyone has their opinions, mine is that they aren't such crap as you think. Built cheaply or built efficiently? "Higher quality" brands, are you paying for quality, or a label on the front? With studio I wouldn't go for Behrigner but anything live sound I think it works, and that's what matters. Get's the job done, and no one questions how.

Sam.

You'll get flamed so badly in the next days.... :o

Occationally Behringer produces a "fluke" where a product seems to perform surprisingly well overall.  I was recently in a discussion about the ADA 8000 preamp which has been a solid contender for me, however you CAN hear the difference between it and let's say a Yamaha preamp, especially when you are mixing many sources.  There is this "behringerishness" about the sound that is hard to explain and I have heard it with just about every Behringer product I have ever used:  There is a harshness at about 1,2 kHz that just can't be adjusted with EQ as all the sound is gone by the time the harshness is.  I guess they are using some very popular model opamp cicuit in most of their models that just doesn't quite cut it.  Maybe it's screwing with mid-frequency phase, I don't know.

That's the performance, let's look at quality control and reliability:  Every single time I order up a batch of Behringer gear, by the time I get to the second or third box I have encountered something wrong with a unit.  It will be things like LEDs that go on or off when they shouldn't, stray pots having a different mechanical feel than the rest, small parts like fuse-holders or pot caps missing from the box.  In one case, I even encountered a pot on a gate that worked IN REVERSE!  ;D

Regarding the copying, I don't know any inside details for sure.  But "our own" JR designed the Peavey FLS EQs that have always been one of my favourite products.  The Behringer "equivalent" is nowhere close in performance, yet the design is close enough that they were dragged to court over it  ::).

I have always really liked the compressor manuals from Behringer, informative and well written.  That was until I learned that another Labster (Bob Lee?) had written them in the 90s and Behringer just decided to start photocopying...

In my opinion, Behringer is an OK choice if you want to use one of their confirmed "flukes" and feel confident they are up to the task.  Other than that, Behringer is an OK choice for applications where you just need something on the cheap, like an extra headset listening station, a small mixpad to use as a simple volume control or maybe a compressor for a lobby speaker feed at a hotel.





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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 09:23:46 am »

Sam.

You'll get flamed so badly in the next days.... :o
Not if it is an honest inquiry and he accepts the answers given constructively.
Quote

Occationally Behringer produces a "fluke" where a product seems to perform surprisingly well overall.  I was recently in a discussion about the ADA 8000 preamp which has been a solid contender for me, however you CAN hear the difference between it and let's say a Yamaha preamp, especially when you are mixing many sources.  There is this "behringerishness" about the sound that is hard to explain and I have heard it with just about every Behringer product I have ever used:  There is a harshness at about 1,2 kHz that just can't be adjusted with EQ as all the sound is gone by the time the harshness is.  I guess they are using some very popular model opamp cicuit in most of their models that just doesn't quite cut it.  Maybe it's screwing with mid-frequency phase, I don't know.

That's the performance, let's look at quality control and reliability:  Every single time I order up a batch of Behringer gear, by the time I get to the second or third box I have encountered something wrong with a unit.  It will be things like LEDs that go on or off when they shouldn't, stray pots having a different mechanical feel than the rest, small parts like fuse-holders or pot caps missing from the box.  In one case, I even encountered a pot on a gate that worked IN REVERSE!  ;D
I'm reminded of the old joke about the guy who remarries the wife he already divorced once... kind of like tasting the milk, finding it bad, and putting it back in the refrigerator.
Quote
Regarding the copying, I don't know any inside details for sure.  But "our own" JR designed the Peavey FLS EQs that have always been one of my favourite products.  The Behringer "equivalent" is nowhere close in performance, yet the design is close enough that they were dragged to court over it  ::).
Last I heard still unresolved by the courts. Lawsuit is between my old employer who I assigned the patent to, and them. I am only indirectly involved as the inventor. They claim theirs is different.  8) This seems open and shut to me, but by the time issues like this get into the courts it's all about dueling lawyers, and deep pockets, not the facts as I interpret them.
Quote
I have always really liked the compressor manuals from Behringer, informative and well written.  That was until I learned that another Labster (Bob Lee?) had written them in the 90s and Behringer just decided to start photocopying...
For the record it was the RMX power amp manuals that Bob Lee wrote, and they "borrowed" so liberally from, along with the amp designs.  I once had them literally copy a spec sheet without a single detail change for a small mixer model they borrowed the design from. I guess that was cheaper than actually testing their version on the bench. The odds of every spec being exactly the same are pretty slender, even with a close copy. Many specs are rounded off based on experience and judgement to add some worst case tolerance. I probably wouldn't spec our mixer "exactly" the same two time in a row.  Never imagined there would be value in copyrighting a spec sheet?? Does that even make sense? Not much. 
Quote
In my opinion, Behringer is an OK choice if you want to use one of their confirmed "flukes" and feel confident they are up to the task.  Other than that, Behringer is an OK choice for applications where you just need something on the cheap, like an extra headset listening station, a small mixpad to use as a simple volume control or maybe a compressor for a lobby speaker feed at a hotel.
I read that they are popular for use on movie sets to "look like" they are operating real gear. :o

JR
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Brad Weber

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 10:51:06 am »

The general issue for many is not one of a company making a mistake and learning from it, but rather a company that appears to not care as long as they profit.

The one particular incident that stands out to me is the $1,000,000 FCC fine for marketing unauthorized products not just for up to five years but for over a year after being informed of the problem.  Behringer's argument is that their was some confusion over the certification since the products had passed stricter European standards, however that does not explain their continuing to sell many products they knew were in violation of US law for over a year after being notified and right up until the FCC hit them in the pocketbook.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2012, 10:53:04 am »

Sam.

You'll get flamed so badly in the next days.... :o

Occationally Behringer produces a "fluke" where a product seems to perform surprisingly well overall.  I was recently in a discussion about the ADA 8000 preamp which has been a solid contender for me, however you CAN hear the difference between it and let's say a Yamaha preamp, especially when you are mixing many sources. 

I knew the rep but heard the ADA 8000 was a fluke.  I bought 5 of them new.  One was noisy on arrival. I mean lots of noise, un useable.  The other 4 went bad over a period on 1.5 years.  If you are working any gig where things can't fail they are the wrong choice. I am cured.

As a guy on another forum says  "Tools are expensive.  Cheep tools are VERY expensive."

Friends don't let friends buy Behringer
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Scott Bolt

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2012, 11:04:31 am »

I am going to have to go with Matt on this one.

I have just replaced my little Behringer home mixer with an Allen&Heath ZED 10FX due to the Behringer totally breaking down right before a party.

Now, I did have the mixer for a few years, but it nearly spoiled a party due to its unreliability (and after all, it was just sitting on a desk ..... how could it just break).

I had to run off and get my MixWiz from our drummers house to save the day. 

I think that Behringer's reputation is well deserved.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Why is Behringer so hated?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2012, 12:27:02 pm »

Behringer should get credit for one thing.. It is probably the first company to expose the west to China's standard business practices.. make a cheap copy of something decent and sell it at a fraction of the price. They flooded our market with dirt cheap products that work(pretty much... most of the time) so the long standing manufacturers had no choice but to follow suit and introduce thier own new lines of dirt cheap products that have all the same corners cut and are sadly.. also mostly built in China, the end result being that overall the bar has been lowered. Entry level gear costs are lower now than they have ever been but performance and reliability have also been drastically lowered, you wouldn't buy a used Mackie CFX console any more than you would Behringer mixer I hope.. cause they're pretty much the same quality level and who knows how long it will remain 100% functional. Congratulations Uli... that's one hell of an accomplishment.
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