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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Lyn Gillean on January 23, 2018, 11:48:26 pm

Title: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Lyn Gillean on January 23, 2018, 11:48:26 pm
I would first like to say thank you for creating this form. There's a great amount of information.
I would like to ask what everyone is running for a rack mountable surge protector for their main equipment.
Thank you.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 24, 2018, 12:00:29 am
I would first like to say thank you

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Weogo Reed on February 05, 2018, 10:38:32 pm
Hi Lyn,

SurgeX is good stuff.

Are you protecting any digital equipment
If so, a UPS is suggested so the digital pieces don't re-boot if you lose power for a short period of time.

Make sure any load and protection are reasonably matched.

Good health,  Weogo


I would first like to say thank you for creating this form. There's a great amount of information.
I would like to ask what everyone is running for a rack mountable surge protector for their main equipment.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 06, 2018, 09:05:15 am
I have Surge-X at FOH,  on the platform, and on the big screen TVs.

BTW Don't put other brands of surge protection on interconnected equipment. Many dump the surge to ground and can do more harm then good.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Kevin Graf on February 06, 2018, 03:37:55 pm
..............................................
BTW Don't put other brands of surge protection on interconnected equipment. Many dump the surge to ground and can do more harm then good.
Not only can they dump noise onto the Safety Ground in day-to-day operation, in the event of nearby lightning strike, each can go into protection mode at a different high voltage, creating a large voltage difference between circuits.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Steve Litscher on February 22, 2018, 08:32:56 pm
Follow-on question...

We just purchased a dLive system and I'd like to have a good UPS and quality surge protector in the rack along with the CDM32.

Was looking at the APC SMC1000 (http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Smart-UPS-C-1000VA-LCD-RM-2U-120V/P-SMC1000-2U) for a UPS but am not sure what to do in terms of a surge protector or power conditioner... I like the Furman 1800 PF C, but am not certain about its surge protection capabilities.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 22, 2018, 09:11:23 pm
Thoughts? Suggestions?

I'll admit that I'm not a huge expert on the topic (and honestly don't know at what pricepoint the generic Furman units become useful), but I use online double conversion UPS on my rigs - specifically the rackmount offerings from Eaton.  Their stock fans are a bit noisy, but otherwise they're solid units that provide true clean power.  I'm sure someone with more knowledge can fill in the gaps, but the double conversion units generally do a much better job in terms of providing consistent clean power than the line-interactive types of UPS since there's a factor of isolation between the input and the output. 
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 22, 2018, 10:26:25 pm
Follow-on question...

We just purchased a dLive system and I'd like to have a good UPS and quality surge protector in the rack along with the CDM32.

Was looking at the APC SMC1000 (http://"http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Smart-UPS-C-1000VA-LCD-RM-2U-120V/P-SMC1000-2U") for a UPS but am not sure what to do in terms of a surge protector or power conditioner... I like the Furman 1800 PF C, but am not certain about its surge protection capabilities.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Surge = lightning.  If you're in a place where this has been a problem for your area, I seriously suggest looking at SurgeX models to protect the branch circuit(s) that power FOH/the tech world.  If you're not in a locale where lighting is a common issue you probably don't need additional surge protection beyond what is provided by the UPS.  I don't seen surge protection on touring rigs from Clair, Ratt or Clearwing.  The video guys tend to have very big UPS units but I don't recall any outboard surge protection.

You mention "power conditioner" and I can only surmise that is used after a "power shampoo."  There is NO SUCH THING if it's a passive device.  We can blame Furman for conjuring up this bullshit description 25 years ago (like Mackie and "unity" as if it were something special) and it won't go away... but if the device doesn't isolate the load neutral from the line neutral, all the harmonics that end up on your neutral will still be there.  Lather all you want, but unless you do a double conversion UPS like Jeff mentions (which is not a passive device), there ain't no such thing.

Also your URL link is broken.  You need to go back and edit the "quote" marks out of it.

As for the APC model it links to, I think it is suitable for your use; we use the Tripp-Lite equivalent "smart" UPS.  Replace the batteries every couple of years and you'll get a decade+ of service from it.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Steve Litscher on February 22, 2018, 11:34:46 pm
Surge = lightning.  If you're in a place where this has been a problem for your area, I seriously suggest looking at SurgeX models to protect the branch circuit(s) that power FOH/the tech world.  If you're not in a locale where lighting is a common issue you probably don't need additional surge protection beyond what is provided by the UPS.  I don't seen surge protection on touring rigs from Clair, Ratt or Clearwing.  The video guys tend to have very big UPS units but I don't recall any outboard surge protection.

You mention "power conditioner" and I can only surmise that is used after a "power shampoo."  There is NO SUCH THING if it's a passive device.  We can blame Furman for conjuring up this bullshit description 25 years ago (like Mackie and "unity" as if it were something special) and it won't go away... but if the device doesn't isolate the load neutral from the line neutral, all the harmonics that end up on your neutral will still be there.  Lather all you want, but unless you do a double conversion UPS like Jeff mentions (which is not a passive device), there ain't no such thing.

Also your URL link is broken.  You need to go back and edit the "quote" marks out of it.

As for the APC model it links to, I think it is suitable for your use; we use the Tripp-Lite equivalent "smart" UPS.  Replace the batteries every couple of years and you'll get a decade+ of service from it.

Thanks, Tim - this is incredibly helpful.

So... lighting = no issue. As most everyone else here would likely do, we will shut-down production at the first hint of an electrical storm, so it sounds like the SurgeX may not be a necessary item.

What I do worry about is surges from generators and/or dodgy local power.

Would the Eaton UPS be our best, single bet? I've also been looking into the Furman P-1800 AR (voltage regulator) with the thought that it would provide consistent 120V and hopefully that would be a "clean" 120V... I believe the 1800-AR provides regulation whereas the 1800 PF C may not.

If we went with something like the Eaton 9PX700RT in the rack, would there be any need for any other power conditioner/regulator? My only goal is to protect the CDM32 while allowing for a semi-graceful "mute" of all mains in the event of a major power issue.

There's also the SurgeX SU1000LI which is a UPS/surge protector... I wonder if that would be worth looking into?
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 23, 2018, 01:30:41 am
Would the Eaton UPS be our best, single bet? I've also been looking into the Furman P-1800 AR (voltage regulator) with the thought that it would provide consistent 120V and hopefully that would be a "clean" 120V... I believe the 1800-AR provides regulation whereas the 1800 PF C may not.

If we went with something like the Eaton 9PX700RT in the rack, would there be any need for any other power conditioner/regulator? My only goal is to protect the CDM32 while allowing for a semi-graceful "mute" of all mains in the event of a major power issue.

A "double conversion" UPS works by converting the power to DC to charge the battery and power an inverter. The inverter takes its power from the converter/charger when utility power is available, and from the battery when utility power fails. Because the output of the charger, the battery, and the input of the inverter are all connected in parallel, there is no switchover time when utility power fails (because there is no switch).

The equipment connected to the UPS is clean power, immune to external power issues, because it is being created by the inverter from the DC power source (charger or battery). The cleanliness of the output power depends on the waveform. Some cheap inverters output a square wave (very undesirable); others put out a "modified sine wave" (which amounts to a coarsely stepped sine wave). The best ones will put out a clean sine wave.

As for a suitable model, I can't help you make that decision. I just wanted to make sure you understood how a double-conversion UPS works, and how it provides clean power.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Wes Garland on February 23, 2018, 09:05:52 am
Interesting thread.  FWIW I generally use very basic APC 1U rackmount PDUs for my equipment, because I have a bunch saved from IT datacenter work.

What exactly does the SurgeX do that other brands don't?  I was under the impression that all of these products clamp surges with MOVs?  My worry is always undetected MOV degradation.

re. the Furmann stuff - I was under the impression that it was a just bandpass filters centered at 60Hz, like the old ISOBars from the 90s.  Is my impression correct?

What exactly the  problem with mixing/matching surge suppressors?  I generally feed three "power bars" with circuit breakers (and, I assume, MOVs) from a rack PDU to power my stage.  Then I will run lights and FOH from a different circuit/PDU if possible.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Steve Litscher on February 23, 2018, 10:50:36 am
Well, ok... my local vendor can't get Eaton products, but they do carry the entire SurgeX line. I see SurgeX has a double conversion UPS - the UPS-1000-OL (http://espsurgex.com/product/ups-standalone/).

Thinking this might be the best way to go, and if I understand everyone here correctly, should eliminate the need for any additional purchases (surge protection, filter, etc)?
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Rob Spence on March 02, 2018, 12:49:15 pm
When you use the words “surge” about your power, what do you mean?
The voltage correction devices are switching transformer taps and as such do not react to fast changes in voltage. Mostly they are used when the voltage sags for an extended time, think seconds or even hours. Generators of appropriate size don’t sag or surge.
I have liked the Trip-light ups devices. I used to use APC but after a few too many swollen batteries that were very hard to remove (think disassemble the frigging thing), I stopped.

Surge suppressors (power strips) in series can cause CGFI trips. I cut out the MOVs.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: frank kayser on March 04, 2018, 01:09:47 am
I'm going to buck the Surgex recommendation.  Never again.


I bought two Model DS-PP (stand alone, not rack mounted) (rated 120v 15a) Type 3 surge protective devices a couple years ago because they were so highly spoken of, and that it was said their design did not use MOVs. Seemed perfect for my Lounge Level rig. However, the first time I went to use them at our event, the GFCI it was plugged into popped. Reset the GFCI, and popped again. Odd I thought.  Took a while to determine the Surgex was the problem.  Probably defective, but should be checked further.


Later I "tested" it on every GFCI device I could find.  Popped every one immediately with a load, and with no load.   Definately, not doing what I thought it should.  Time to turn it in under warranty.


A call to Surgex produced (paraphrased) "yes we know that.  You should not be using them in that way. They were meant for office laser printers and the such, which don't plug into GFCI devices. There is a different unit that does not trip GFCI, but we won't honor the warranty on your devices as they are not defective, and are operating as designed"  No offer to trade up, either.   >:(


Nowhere on the box, documentation, or website did they mention or warn about incompatibilities  with GFCI devices.  Not mentioned on the label, either.  >:(


I had a long post on this forum and even Mike Sokol got the runaround from them.  I even withheld the Surgex name in case I had made some type of error, or they would make good.  After months of broken promises, I was too fed up with them to continue, and released the name on the forum.  The post is still on here somewhere.


I know folks swear by Surgex.  I can't imagine that a company designed a surge protector that is incompatible with GFCI devices.  Where and how much current are they leaking?  Why?  I can't imagine any company offering for sale anything that trips every GFCI it is plugged into.


This is one company that will never get a second chance from me.  >:(  Bad product, misleading documentation and box labeling, and an arrogant company that could give a s^&t about customers.  >:( >:(  Really?  They can't eat $60 for customer good will.  If I never hear the name again, it will be too soon.  >:( >:( >:(


PM me if you really want to know how I feel.


frank



Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Brian Bolly on March 06, 2018, 03:38:23 pm
Well, ok... my local vendor can't get Eaton products, but they do carry the entire SurgeX line. I see SurgeX has a double conversion UPS - the UPS-1000-OL (http://espsurgex.com/product/ups-standalone/).

Thinking this might be the best way to go, and if I understand everyone here correctly, should eliminate the need for any additional purchases (surge protection, filter, etc)?

The SurgeX UPS-1000-OL is OEM'd by Extreme Power (xpcc.com) - it is effectively their P90 series UPS.  Same thing for the Juice Goose SCV series.  I do not believe these units (even the SurgeX branded ones) have any of the regular SurgeX technology in them.  Most UPS units do have some sort of surge suppression in them, but read carefully.

What I have done for the last 15+ years is use a real SurgeX SX series in front of the UPS, as not everything needs the UPS, but everything could use the SurgeX.  I quit using Furmans after 2 events: 1) Dave (THE Dave, LAB founder) posted a photo from a failed Furman that took out a rack of high dollar gear with it; 2) I went on a service call after a local cathedral took a number of lightning strikes in one night.  Everything on a SurgeX including a custom API console survived, completely unscathed, and everything not on one was either burned, fried or blown up/out.  (Ever seen an ETC DMX wall plate blown out of the wall??)

SurgeX work, period.  And the SX series, which are the rack mount units designed for what we do, are not MOV based - I can't speak to Frank's experience.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 21, 2018, 07:36:53 pm
2) I went on a service call after a local cathedral took a number of lightning strikes in one night.  Everything on a SurgeX including a custom API console survived, completely unscathed, and everything not on one was either burned, fried or blown up/out.  (Ever seen an ETC DMX wall plate blown out of the wall??)

SurgeX work, period.  And the SX series, which are the rack mount units designed for what we do, are not MOV based - I can't speak to Frank's experience.

We had a similar experience. Our sound equipment is protected by two Surge-X  one in the booth, and one behind the platform.  Our video equipment was not protected.  A near by lightning hit took out most of our video equipment. Not a single piece of the protected audio equipment was damaged.  We now have a 3rd SurgeX for all the video.   There is none better.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on March 22, 2018, 05:55:22 am
What exactly does the SurgeX do that other brands don't?  I was under the impression that all of these products clamp surges with MOVs?  My worry is always undetected MOV degradation.

The SurgeX units don't use MOVs, these are serious devices and cost a lot more than normal surge protectors, definitely look at their website.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: William Schnake on March 22, 2018, 07:34:46 am
I would first like to say thank you for creating this form. There's a great amount of information.
I would like to ask what everyone is running for a rack mountable surge protector for their main equipment.
Thank you.
Lyn, we use the Tripplite line of rack mount surge protector with battery backup.  They work great.  Anything that is digital, except power amps, we use are protected by them in our road racks.  We have never had a problem with them in 5 years.

Bill
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 22, 2018, 10:08:37 am

What exactly does the SurgeX do that other brands don't?  I was under the impression that all of these products clamp surges with MOVs?  My worry is always undetected MOV degradation.


Surge-X dosn't use MOVs.  Also they are self checking and will show an error if there is a problem.  Very important for a distributed system such as most sound systems, they don't dump spikes to the ground thus causing the ground at other points in the system to spike.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Adam Kane on March 23, 2018, 02:27:26 pm
Surge-X dosn't use MOVs.  Also they are self checking and will show an error if there is a problem.  Very important for a distributed system such as most sound systems, they don't dump spikes to the ground thus causing the ground at other points in the system to spike.

So, I've never had a piece of Surge-X gear open. What do they use in place of MOV's?
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 23, 2018, 03:56:25 pm
So, I've never had a piece of Surge-X gear open. What do they use in place of MOV's?

A sealed package from Marie Laveau's House of Voodoo in NOLA.  You DONT want to open it.  Ever.  8)

http://espsurgex.com/about-us/our-technology/
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 23, 2018, 07:22:18 pm
So, I've never had a piece of Surge-X gear open. What do they use in place of MOV's?

Essentially really big series inductors that present a high impedance path for voltage spikes with a fast rise time. This is the opposite of MOV devices that short out the voltage spike to the ground when the peak voltage goes over the design threshold.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 23, 2018, 09:12:49 pm
Essentially really big series inductors that present a high impedance path for voltage spikes with a fast rise time. This is the opposite of MOV devices that short out the voltage spike to the ground when the peak voltage goes over the design threshold.

I liked the gris-gris bag...

But your explanation has that science thing going for it.
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Scott Hofmann on March 24, 2018, 12:05:09 am
Essentially really big series inductors that present a high impedance path for voltage spikes with a fast rise time. This is the opposite of MOV devices that short out the voltage spike to the ground when the peak voltage goes over the design threshold.

Sounds just like the chokes in a 20 amp or 50 amp dimmer using SCRs or  solid state relays!
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 24, 2018, 08:53:14 am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=79p3ysUnx_Y
Title: Re: Rack mountable surge protectors
Post by: Brian Bolly on March 28, 2018, 05:54:14 am
I liked the gris-gris bag...

But your explanation has that science thing going for it.

I may have snarfed my coffee reading that.  Thanks, Tim.   :o