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Church and H.O.W. Ė Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Isaac South on November 09, 2017, 12:03:21 am

Title: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 09, 2017, 12:03:21 am
Our church is getting a new sound system next week.  This is a huge change for us.  We've always only had amps on stage and used the mains for vocals and preacher mic.  Anyways, I can finally start using MainStage at church to run some cool sounds, or I may get the Keyscape for a nice piano sound.

I need help learning how to run sounds from my computer to my piano and to the house.

I want to be able to run MainStage or whatever program, via my Roland RD300.

I have midi cables.  I also have a scarlet 2i2, Radial Engineering Pro D2, Macbook, etc.  Basically, i have everything, i just don't know how to hook it up.  Can someone help me?  Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 10, 2017, 01:31:20 am
From midi out on the keyboard to midi in on the scarlet. From main L and R out on the scarlet to xlr in to the system.

No need for the DI the Scarlet's outputs are balanced just need to use TRS to XLR cables

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 10, 2017, 01:33:24 pm
Where does the MacBook get connected?
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 10, 2017, 02:18:38 pm
I though that was quite obvious. USB cable to the scarlet

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 10, 2017, 02:32:29 pm
The scarlett only has one usb input.  Not two, as you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 10, 2017, 02:38:05 pm
I don't understand?

I only mentioned USB once...

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 10, 2017, 02:42:17 pm
OK I see what you are saying after looking at the Scarlett 2i2.

You want to go USB from the keyboard to the Mac for midi and USB from the Scarlett to the Mac for  audio. The rest is all the same.

Why did you mention midi cables which is 5-pin din?

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Steve Alves on November 10, 2017, 09:56:12 pm
I think you are misunderstanding him. Midi from Keyboard out to Scarlet (midi cable).. USB from Scarlet to USB on Mac. Keyboard does not connect directly to the Mac, only to the Scarlet. At least that is how I read it.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 10, 2017, 11:33:05 pm
I think you are misunderstanding him. Midi from Keyboard out to Scarlet (midi cable).. USB from Scarlet to USB on Mac. Keyboard does not connect directly to the Mac, only to the Scarlet. At least that is how I read it.
This would be correct but the 2i2 doesn't have a Midi port only the larger ones do but the Roland has a USB Midi port hence the reason I posted a different methodology..

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Chris Penny on November 12, 2017, 08:41:07 pm
Jean-Pierre is correct. You need two usb cables connected to the macbook. One being to the keyboard and one to the scarlet.
While you could use trs to xlr cables to connect to your system, personally I would use the DI as it adds a layer of protection allowing for isolation from phantom power and potential ground loops.
One suggestion for additional functionality is to pick up something like a korg nano-controller so you can have some physical buttons close to hand when playing. This will add another usb cable to connect to the mac so you may need a usb hub.
As you build up a collection of sounds (which you will) you may also need to consider placing your sample libraries on an external drive.



 
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 12, 2017, 11:02:31 pm
This what one guy told me to do. Is he correct? Since I want to be able to run mainstage sounds, OR my Roland sounds, and a loops track, and a click. I didn't make that clear in my op, but now that I'm into it, I realize I need help with all of it.

So basically, I need to send 2 stereo channels to FOH for my sounds, one channel to FOH for loops/backing tracks, and another channel for the click track. Here's what he said:

- You need an audio interface with at least 4 outputs, like a Scarlett 2i4
- You will assign the channel outputs in Mainstage to a pair of the interface outputs (say Outputs 1-2), then assign the output channel for your loops to output 3 and the click to output 4.
- You will need a basic mixer to combine the Mainstage outputs and the Roland outputs.  The Rolls MX28 may seem too simple, but it does what you would need.
- You would need a total of 4 DI channels for everything.
I made up a little diagram below that shows the connections. There will be a few cable needs to think through as well. :-)


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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Chris Penny on November 13, 2017, 12:37:17 am
Ok, so a bit more complex than I thought. Unfortunately I do not have any practical experience in setting up mainstage to work with tracks/loops, although I have seen it done once.  I do know if you google there are tutorials (text and youtube) out there on how to get mainstage and ableton to talk and work with each other.

As a sound guy one question I do have is are you limited to two tracks to FOH? Ideally I would be sending your mainstage rig, loops, click and preferably the roland to FOH as separate feeds. FOH can then deal with mixing them for the room (which is not what you will want for your in-ears).

One thing to note is the latency within mainstage will be different to the Roland so you may not want to use sounds from both at the same time.  Personally I have found better sounding samples/ synths to run through mainstage than those that come with the roland keyboards I have dealt with so I would only be connecting up the roland as the emergency for when mainstage crashes or does something strange.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 13, 2017, 03:08:01 pm
Ok, so a bit more complex than I thought. Unfortunately I do not have any practical experience in setting up mainstage to work with tracks/loops, although I have seen it done once.  I do know if you google there are tutorials (text and youtube) out there on how to get mainstage and ableton to talk and work with each other.

As a sound guy one question I do have is are you limited to two tracks to FOH? Ideally I would be sending your mainstage rig, loops, click and preferably the roland to FOH as separate feeds. FOH can then deal with mixing them for the room (which is not what you will want for your in-ears).

One thing to note is the latency within mainstage will be different to the Roland so you may not want to use sounds from both at the same time.  Personally I have found better sounding samples/ synths to run through mainstage than those that come with the roland keyboards I have dealt with so I would only be connecting up the roland as the emergency for when mainstage crashes or does something strange.

Exactly. I agree 100%. Iím only gonna use the Roland sounds, if something goes wrong and my MacBook crashes.

Iím totally cool with sending any # of channels to the board. We have plenty.

I just donít know how to hook it all up. What cable to run from what device. Thatís the part I need help with.


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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 09:33:45 am
Connect to keyboard to the mac with USB
Connect the Mac to the Scarlet with USB

Take 2 jacks from the keyboard to a DI to the Stage box / snake
Take a 1/8" TRS to 2 1/4" TRS out of the mac to a DI and then to the Stage box / snake
Take 2 jack from the scarlet 2i2 to a DI then to the Stage box/snake

Setup an aggregate IO on the mac with the scarlet and the built in output

Run your tracks on the built in output and Mainstage on the scarlet (You should have gotten a 2i4 or larger even, it's useful to send tracks in stereo and cue and click on two separate channels but you will have to deal with it for now)

Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 09:37:44 am
For the DI though I would just buy a ProD8 and use that...
Title: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 15, 2017, 12:13:02 pm
Jean-Pierre Coetzee. Thank you! I will try this tonight. But a couple  questions:

1. Itís funny you mention the interface, I actually went and purchased a 6i6. How does that change the setup?

2. I only have two Pro D2 direct boxes. I do have another direct box but I donít think it does stereo.

3. What about the Rolls mx that I have. Not needed?


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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 01:01:11 pm
Jean-Pierre Coetzee. Thank you! I will try this tonight. But a couple  questions:

1. Itís funny you mention the interface, I actually went and purchase a 6i6. How does that change the setup?

2. I only have two Pro D2 direct boxes. I do have another direct box but I donít think it does stereo.

3. What about the Rolls mx that I have. Not needed?


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1. In stead of doing the aggregate audio thing send MainStage on 2 outputs, put your loops on another 2 outputs and put click on the 5th, if you have a CUE track put that on the last output.

2. As I said you can go from the 6i6 with a TRS to XLR cable and it should be fine, the DI is really a precaution but I think Focusrite thought ahead and out DC blocking caps on the outputs.

3. You don't absolutely need it but if you have a shortage of channels on the desk you can sum the two keyboards. I wouldn't put it into the chain though unless it's absolutely necessary. You could really even put the loops into it if you are that short of channels but the click and cue needs to go to the desk as individual channels. Which model do you have, looks like there are a few different models. If it's the MX28 like was suggested it's not a problem, if it's one of the others it could be troublesome.

If you use the rolls you would need to follow the below diagram.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 15, 2017, 01:15:49 pm
Wonderful.  This is such a help to me. 

3.  I do have the MX28.  Also, we have plenty of available channels on our board.  I think I can comfortably use 6 channels.  Maybe not 8, though.

1.  So when you say send Mainstage on 2 outputs, I am not sure what you mean.  Do you mean go into the preferences of Mainstage and tell it to send to specific channels of the 6i6? 

Do you recommend that I use the MX28 or not?  I don't even know the purpose of it.  Once guy told me to get it and so I did. 

It's also probably worth mentioning that we use IEM's.  Each band member has a ME-1 (personal mixer) to control our own ears.  The board we use at FOH is the QU-32.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 01:25:46 pm
Wonderful.  This is such a help to me. 

3.  I do have the MX28.  Also, we have plenty of available channels on our board.  I think I can comfortably use 6 channels.  Maybe not 8, though.

1.  So when you say send Mainstage on 2 outputs, I am not sure what you mean.  Do you mean go into the preferences of Mainstage and tell it to send to specific channels of the 6i6? 

Do you recommend that I use the MX28 or not?  I don't even know the purpose of it.  Once guy told me to get it and so I did. 

It's also probably worth mentioning that we use IEM's.  Each band member has a ME-1 (personal mixer) to control our own ears.  The board we use at FOH is the QU-32.

3. I happened to look at the 6i6 in the short time between answers and it looks like it only has 4 line outs, name is counter intuitive IMHO, probably has 6 outputs if you use the SP/DIF outputs... Yes I would send MainStage to output 1 and 2(the keyboard part), since the 6i6 only has 4 outs put the loops on output 3 and the click on output 4.

1. Chat with whoever is doing sound, if it's you then you would need to make that call yourself. The only thing it would do is decrease the amount of channels that is being sent to the console, you would need to mix it yourself though with the rolls.

I doubt you will have issues with IEMs, the ME-1 has 40 channels if I remember right so you will be able to do a custom setup on your ME-1 that would let you mix all of them in your ears yourself.

The rolls really just looks like a set of attenuators going to a stereo bus so I doubt it would do anything negative to the sound, if there is a buzz or something though that would be the first thing I remove from the chain, could have a pin-1 problem.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 15, 2017, 01:50:47 pm
Thank you, Jean Pierre.  This is an answer to prayer.  Honest. 

I really hate to seem needy, but could you redraw the diagram since my 6i6 only has 4 ouputs?

Let's say I'm in a live set, and I want to stop using my Mainstage sounds, and I want to use my internal Roland sounds.  How do I tell the Mainstage to stop working and tell the Roland to start working??
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 02:02:03 pm
Thank you, Jean Pierre.  This is an answer to prayer.  Honest. 

I really hate to seem needy, but could you redraw the diagram since my 6i6 only has 4 ouputs?

Let's say I'm in a live set, and I want to stop using my Mainstage sounds, and I want to use my internal Roland sounds.  How do I tell the Mainstage to stop working and tell the Roland to start working??

Just ignore the two bottom pink lines, other than that leave it be for the without rolls drawing above, for the with rolls drawing ignore the bottom two green lines coming from the 6i6.

For the second question that would depend entirely on how you end up doing the software patching but honestly I would say while your using MainStage leave the volume on the Roland turned down, if you need to use the Roland turn down the volume on your Synth patch in MainStage and turn the volume on the Roland up.

Lots of keyboard player use MainStage for sounds so I really doubt you will ever have a problem. My recommendation though is setup a User Account on the Mac that is used only for MainStage and use your current account for everything else. The only issues I've seen with MainStage has been with a MacBook Air overheating(CPU temperature throttling) which we solved by simply not blocking the air intakes for the fans and simply having 10000 things open in the background while MainStage is running.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 15, 2017, 02:53:00 pm
Just ignore the two bottom pink lines, other than that leave it be for the without rolls drawing above, for the with rolls drawing ignore the bottom two green lines coming from the 6i6.

For the second question that would depend entirely on how you end up doing the software patching but honestly I would say while your using MainStage leave the volume on the Roland turned down, if you need to use the Roland turn down the volume on your Synth patch in MainStage and turn the volume on the Roland up.

Lots of keyboard player use MainStage for sounds so I really doubt you will ever have a problem. My recommendation though is setup a User Account on the Mac that is used only for MainStage and use your current account for everything else. The only issues I've seen with MainStage has been with a MacBook Air overheating(CPU temperature throttling) which we solved by simply not blocking the air intakes for the fans and simply having 10000 things open in the background while MainStage is running.

I modified your drawing (the with rolls part).  I think it's still wrong, though...I included a key that explains my colors.

I've attached it here.  Not sure if I attached it correctly.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 03:01:29 pm
You can send the loops/backing tracks to the Rolls that's fine, just need to send the click track separate.

The rolls would allow you to sum all of it to 1 stereo pair(2 cables).



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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 15, 2017, 03:28:34 pm
You can send the loops/backing tracks to the Rolls that's fine, just need to send the click track separate.

The rolls would allow you to sum all of it to 1 stereo pair(2 cables).



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Oh I see.  In that case, I think I'd rather only send the Roland internal sounds and the mainstage sounds to the MX28.

Then send the loops/tracks to a DI box and to FOH on another channel (or two if stereo).

Then send the click to a DI box and to FOH.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 03:31:47 pm
That would be correct. Theoretically you can send the click through the built in output setting up an aggregate IO on the Mac which will allow you to run stereo loop.

You can do it in the Audio/Midi setting utility.

But you can also just run mono track and click and run it from the 6i6

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Title: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on November 17, 2017, 11:06:54 am
One other quick question, guys.

For connecting 1/4 inch cables from my interface to my Rolls mx28.....can I use ts cables for that or does it need to be trs?

Also, is it ok to use a cheaper cable, or do these patch cables need to be really good quality?

Thanks.


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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 24, 2017, 05:33:03 am
TS is fine and a decent quality would be needed. Make sure that the shield is decent at the very least and put Neutrik or Amphenol or whatever is currently considered the best 1/4" connectors on it.

Buy once.

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on March 16, 2018, 09:33:57 pm
I know this an old post of mine, but Iíve got a new question. Recently, Iíve been wondering why I even need the rolls MX28. I originally got it so that I could mix my mainstage sounds and my keyboard sounds separately and then send one stereo set to FOH.

But couldnít I do that with only the Scarlett?  If I want to use mainstage, then just turn on that patch and turn down the volume on my keyboard. And if I want to use my keyboard sound, then I would select a ďblankĒ patch in mainstage and turn up the volume on my keyboard.

Am I thinking correctly?

Thank you for your input.


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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on March 24, 2018, 04:09:32 am
I know this an old post of mine, but Iíve got a new question. Recently, Iíve been wondering why I even need the rolls MX28. I originally got it so that I could mix my mainstage sounds and my keyboard sounds separately and then send one stereo set to FOH.

But couldnít I do that with only the Scarlett?  If I want to use mainstage, then just turn on that patch and turn down the volume on my keyboard. And if I want to use my keyboard sound, then I would select a ďblankĒ patch in mainstage and turn up the volume on my keyboard.

Am I thinking correctly?

Thank you for your input.


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You can do that but the rolls gives you an nice actual visual que to check quickly in one place, to check the volume on the keyboard and check the MainStage patch and then to fix one or the other requires a lot of eye movement and moving your hand to a few different places.
Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 24, 2018, 06:41:03 am
I know this an old post of mine, but Iíve got a new question. Recently, Iíve been wondering why I even need the rolls MX28. I originally got it so that I could mix my mainstage sounds and my keyboard sounds separately and then send one stereo set to FOH.

But couldnít I do that with only the Scarlett?  If I want to use mainstage, then just turn on that patch and turn down the volume on my keyboard. And if I want to use my keyboard sound, then I would select a ďblankĒ patch in mainstage and turn up the volume on my keyboard.

Am I thinking correctly?

Thank you for your input.


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Also check out the new Radial KL-8.

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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on March 25, 2018, 04:02:58 pm
Also check out the new Radial KL-8.

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Thanks for the info Caleb! Iím going to look into the KL-8. I love Radial gear.

I feel stupid for asking this, but should I be using the inputs on the FRONT of the Scarlett? Or the back?

I tried both ways and the front sound better.


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Title: Re: Setting Up Keyboard Rig
Post by: Isaac South on March 25, 2018, 04:28:24 pm
You can do that but the rolls gives you an nice actual visual que to check quickly in one place, to check the volume on the keyboard and check the MainStage patch and then to fix one or the other requires a lot of eye movement and moving your hand to a few different places.

Thatís a good point. I thought about getting a nano controller (spelling), so that I can control mainstage with it. But Iím not sure yet. I think I may need a usb hub if I go that route.


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