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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: Bob Leonard on February 06, 2016, 07:12:39 pm

Title: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 06, 2016, 07:12:39 pm
I thought after the many conversations pertaining to basic connectivity and networking I might provide an easy to follow and simple EXAMPLE of what a small sound network could be. If appreciated I could take the time to write a beginners paper for wireless networking, explaining what works, what doesn't, and uncover the mysteries in obtaining reliable wireless networking communication. This would have nothing to do with microphones or wireless devices of that type.


Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Mark Favata on February 06, 2016, 07:29:02 pm
I for one would love to see a paper on wireless networking pertaining to sound reinforcement. I recently invested in a Soundcraft Ui16 and it will be my first attempt at mixing wirelessly.

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Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Cailen Waddell on February 06, 2016, 08:23:37 pm

I thought after the many conversations pertaining to basic connectivity and networking I might provide an easy to follow and simple EXAMPLE of what a small sound network could be. If appreciated I could take the time to write a beginners paper for wireless networking, explaining what works, what doesn't, and uncover the mysteries in obtaining reliable wireless networking communication. This would have nothing to do with microphones or wireless devices of that type.

Bob - this is outstanding.  Thank you for taking the time to share this.   I think (although you shared in another thread). Some model examples would be helpful as well.  I think especially in regard to non-wap routers, and waps.

Many thanks.

Also a vote to sticky this please.


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Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Thomas Lamb on February 06, 2016, 08:29:17 pm
I thought after the many conversations pertaining to basic connectivity and networking I might provide an easy to follow and simple EXAMPLE of what a small sound network could be. If appreciated I could take the time to write a beginners paper for wireless networking, explaining what works, what doesn't, and uncover the mysteries in obtaining reliable wireless networking communication. This would have nothing to do with microphones or wireless devices of that type.

Bob this is definately becoming more and more a part of what we are doing. We are all going to need to become at minimum comfortable with being a network engineer. I've been working on QSYS and DANTE networks recently and have learned a bunch. ive learned the hard way about Vlans and how they work.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Doug Fowler on February 06, 2016, 09:32:38 pm
I am moving this to the Wireless forum and stickifying it. 
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Rob Spence on February 06, 2016, 11:48:58 pm
Nice diagram Bob

There have been lots of discussion of late as to why only a WAP and perhaps a switch are all that is needed in most cases. I agree.

However, since most consumer wifi devices are, as you say, combination devices with a WAP, switch and router in a box, I thought I would share how I use mine.

I use Netgear WNDR3700 wireless routers. They cost a little under $100 these days.
I like them because they seem to work well. While they are much larger that the apple boxes, I think their size and stand up orientation provides a better wifi signal. I have 2 and never have problems.

On other thing I like is that it easy to turn off the 2.4gHz radio as I like using the 5gHz band which, at this time, is less crowded.

I usually change the network number from the default (often 192.168.1.0) so to not conflict with other gear. I Also change the wifi SSID to something innocuous that does not suggest what the network is used for.

I configure the WAN port (or Internet port) to be DHCP and make sure the firewall is on and set to discard all unsolicited packets from the WAN port. This is often the default configuration.

At shows, I NEVER connect my network to any other network. To do so without knowledge of the foreign network is to invite problems with your network and therefore your show.

However, at home or at the shop, I can simply plug in the WAN port to my internal local network and have easy access to my own computers and easy ability to download updates for my audio gear.

I hope this helps.


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Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 07, 2016, 06:21:49 am
The 3700 is an outstanding device for it's cost Rob. It's very flexible with a ton of features built in. More important though is being able easily modify those features, and Netgear does a nice job with it's Genie software.

Note that there is no modem in the 3700 (N600?). That's supplied by the service provider bringing the line to your house or office, and that's why you can use the port marked WAN. In this case that port is simply another 10/100/1000 switch port, the same as the other four (4) on the box.

If privacy becomes paramount, and it is, you can also turn off the SSID broadcast function. Just remember what you name the wireless network though, because you'll still need the name to authenticate.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 07, 2016, 05:17:36 pm


Note that there is no modem in the 3700 (N600?). That's supplied by the service provider bringing the line to your house or office, and that's why you can use the port marked WAN. In this case that port is simply another 10/100/1000 switch port, the same as the other four (4) on the box.


The fact it doesn't have a modem has no bearing on function of the WAN port.  From a layer 2 perspective the WAN port is not in the same network as the LAN ports.  It's the input interface (untrusted to the router) and the router forwards packets to the and from the LAN.  For a router to operate the 2 (or more) ports must all me connected to different networks. 

You can't plug another host into the WAN port.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Rob Spence on February 07, 2016, 05:29:53 pm
The 3700 is an outstanding device for it's cost Rob. It's very flexible with a ton of features built in. More important though is being able easily modify those features, and Netgear does a nice job with it's Genie software.

Note that there is no modem in the 3700 (N600?). That's supplied by the service provider bringing the line to your house or office, and that's why you can use the port marked WAN. In this case that port is simply another 10/100/1000 switch port, the same as the other four (4) on the box.

If privacy becomes paramount, and it is, you can also turn off the SSID broadcast function. Just remember what you name the wireless network though, because you'll still need the name to authenticate.

I know there is no modem. I never ever even referred to one.

Turning off SSID is not valid security. There are lots of tools to see the network anyway. Use WAP security at least. I simply choose an SSID that won't attract people.


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Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 07, 2016, 09:03:36 pm
The fact it doesn't have a modem has no bearing on function of the WAN port.  From a layer 2 perspective the WAN port is not in the same network as the LAN ports.  It's the input interface (untrusted to the router) and the router forwards packets to the and from the LAN.  For a router to operate the 2 (or more) ports must all me connected to different networks. 

You can't plug another host into the WAN port.

I suppose it would have been more correct to state it's not a DSL connector, T1 port or WIC adapter. The fact is that on this particular SOHO device the port is simply another switched port. Any standard patch cable will work.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 07, 2016, 09:09:55 pm
I know there is no modem. I never ever even referred to one.

Turning off SSID is not valid security. There are lots of tools to see the network anyway. Use WAP security at least. I simply choose an SSID that won't attract people.


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Correct, turning off the SSID broadcast ALONE is not good security. Turning off the SSID will only keep your network from being visible to other casual users and drive by's. Very common practice in the business world. Out of site is mostly out of mind.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Charest on February 07, 2016, 09:32:15 pm
I thought after the many conversations pertaining to basic connectivity and networking I might provide an easy to follow and simple EXAMPLE of what a small sound network could be...

Hi Bob,

Really useful graphic - just great! Thank you!

Best regards,
Bob Charest
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 08, 2016, 03:57:38 am
I suppose it would have been more correct to state it's not a DSL connector, T1 port or WIC adapter. The fact is that on this particular SOHO device the port is simply another switched port. Any standard patch cable will work.

The WAN port can't be in the same network as the LAN.  That would never work.  The WAN port has a DHCP client, the LAN a DHCP server for starters. 

The WAN port is the input to the router, the LAN may or may not have a convenience switch, most do.

Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 08, 2016, 06:45:24 am
Great post!
Thanks Bob :)
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 08, 2016, 06:53:08 am
The WAN port can't be in the same network as the LAN.  That would never work.  The WAN port has a DHCP client, the LAN a DHCP server for starters. 

The WAN port is the input to the router, the LAN may or may not have a convenience switch, most do.



That would be understood. The point is that Rob is able to attach to his house network directly, not the case if it were a WIC card or DSL connection. You're splitting hairs and the intent is to keep the post simplistic.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 08, 2016, 08:14:20 am
Question...
If I happen to only have a WiFi enabled router to use as a WAP connected to a switcher in  a wireless rack, how do I configure it to act only as a WAP?
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 08, 2016, 06:10:36 pm
Question...
If I happen to only have a WiFi enabled router to use as a WAP connected to a switcher in  a wireless rack, how do I configure it to act only as a WAP?

What's the model and manufacturer.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 08, 2016, 11:27:12 pm
In this case that port is simply another 10/100/1000 switch port, the same as the other four (4) on the box.

Not splitting hairs, I read this as you were suggesting you can use the WAN port as another switch port.  I was clarifying so someone didn't make that mistake and wonder what was wrong.

Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 09, 2016, 07:11:50 am
What's the model and manufacturer.
I don't have a specific model in mind but thought there would be settings common to WiFi enabled routers that could be changed.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 09, 2016, 08:29:08 am
Look for a model that allows you to turn off the router. I'll do some searching tonight if you like.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 09, 2016, 08:38:50 am
Look for a model that allows you to turn off the router. I'll do some searching tonight if you like.
Don't spend any time on this. I'll check for router disable function.
Thanks :)
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Rob Spence on February 09, 2016, 12:31:39 pm
Don't spend any time on this. I'll check for router disable function.
Thanks :)

Ok, I gotta ask. Why bother? Having the router there isn't hurting anything.


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Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: William Schnake on February 10, 2016, 08:27:22 am
I thought after the many conversations pertaining to basic connectivity and networking I might provide an easy to follow and simple EXAMPLE of what a small sound network could be. If appreciated I could take the time to write a beginners paper for wireless networking, explaining what works, what doesn't, and uncover the mysteries in obtaining reliable wireless networking communication. This would have nothing to do with microphones or wireless devices of that type.
Thanks Bob, for me a picture is very helpful.  Yes, I am a visual learner as my wife the teach says.  Also, I want to thank you for the clarification on Access Point vs. Router in a post from last week.  Next time I am in the Boston area, I owe you a beer or two.  ;)

Thanks again.

Bill
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 10, 2016, 04:23:03 pm
Ok, I gotta ask. Why bother? Having the router there isn't hurting anything.


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Good point..I have no good answer :-[
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 10, 2016, 06:56:28 pm
Look for a model that allows you to turn off the router. I'll do some searching tonight if you like.

I just did a quick search and see the DD-wrt is alive and well and supported on an ass load of routers with modern radios in them, included them vaunted marvel chipset.

dd-wrt is a Linux micro-kernel based open source router OS.  It let's you customize your router to a degree you don't get outside of enterprise based devices running software such as Cisco IOS.  DD-WRT includes OpenVPN, wireless roaming, bridging, repeating, complex routing, VLAN's.  You name it does it. 

So in my opinion you can either use the Ubiquity or TP-Link Access Points that are dirt simple to setup or a DD-WRT based device.

More info here - http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index

Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 10, 2016, 07:20:46 pm
Thanks Scott, good to know.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Joel T. Glaser on March 19, 2016, 01:42:31 pm
Thanks for the timely post Bob. I'm just getting started in the area and like someone else mentioned, I too am more visual. I'm starting to understand the basics of how this all works and your diagram helps.

Thanks again.

Joel
Studio 52
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on April 20, 2016, 08:12:57 pm
Great diagram, Bob.

There are certainly many scenarios we can all dream up about different ways to configure a network. I think those considerations are best left as a side discussion; keeping it simple is best for a general guide such as this.

Regarding DHCP vs. static addressing: in a small network such as described, the router usually serves as a DHCP server. I recommend leaving the DHCP server enabled, but a limited scope. Many routers will assign addresses anywhere in the .2 to .254 range; I typically reduce this to .100-199. That leaves other addresses available for static assignment without resulting in an address conflict with a dynamically assigned address. The DHCP server will provide immediate connectivity for devices that need to be added to the network; some devices are easier to configure with static addresses if they have a DHCP server available for the initial configuration on the network.

Critical devices (network infrastructure like routers, switches, access points; mixer; control workstations) should have statically-assigned addresses where possible; loss of a dynamically assigned (or DHCP reservation) address during a live performance can be a bad thing. Static addresses should never be assigned within the DHCP scope to avoid conflicts.

I do like to use DHCP reservations for non-critical equipment that needs stable addressing (such as a network printer). It makes modifying the configuration easier to have a central place to do it. However, that implies that your DHCP service is running on a server or an advanced router; few home routers provide for DHCP reservations (and fewer provide for custom DHCP options).

I agree that designating ranges within the subnet for different classes of devices is a good practice. For example, .1 to .19 for network infrastructure; .20 to .49 for servers; .50 to .69 for printers; .70 to .99 for workstations (static or DHCP reservation); .100 to .199 for DHCP clients (dynamic addressing); etc.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Aaron Becker on April 22, 2016, 12:25:44 am
I too appreciate the insight for how all of you manage network structure as it relates to live sound. My only struggle over the years has been protecting the "sound" network from unwanted internet leaches. And, protecting the equipment from the internet. Through some old friends who work in IT I've been working to learn how to do some VLAN routing on the network to achieve this. It works pretty well.
Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Rob Spence on April 22, 2016, 11:45:31 am
I too appreciate the insight for how all of you manage network structure as it relates to live sound. My only struggle over the years has been protecting the "sound" network from unwanted internet leaches. And, protecting the equipment from the internet. Through some old friends who work in IT I've been working to learn how to do some VLAN routing on the network to achieve this. It works pretty well.

Easy, don't connect the audio network to the Internet 😎

If you must connect to an existing network that is connected to the Internet, then do it through your own firewall. Heck, most consumer Wifi AP/Router/Switch/Firewall devices have a default rule that simply discards all unsolicited packets that originate on the unsecured side.



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Title: Re: A basic network diagram for sound
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 08, 2016, 04:35:49 pm
I am trying to figure out if I can do what I want with a network switch. I am using a Midas M32 with a computer program to control scene management called Palladium. It can use OSC (Open Sound Control) or Midi to control the mixer and take data from the mixer. Due to the limitations of the Midi implementation in the M32 I have switched over to using OSC. This works over Ethernet. I hook up the M32 and the computer with an Ethernet cable directly connected between the 2. I set the Network setting on the M32 to a static IP address. In Palladium there are the OSC port settings. There are ports from I Ė P and the fields to enter the data are the Name, IP Address, Port, Ping and Period. So I usually name it M32 Mixer, the IP address that is entered exactly matches the M32s IP address, the Port is 10023, the Ping is /xremote, and the period is 9. And this all works just fine with 2 way communication.

I have also done wireless control of the mixer with no problem using a WAP. The next step I want to take is to be able to use both Palladium and the wireless control app together. I am trying to figure out if it will work to use a wireless network router/switch. So can I do hardwired but thru the switch part (?) of the wireless router/switch and wireless however that would all work together.

The next step would be, can I control 2 mixers with this routing with Palladium. Palladium can control up to 3 mixers using Midi and I have done 2 in the past using 2 USB to Midi devices on the computer. With the number of OSC ports available I would think I should be able to control up to 3 mixers with OSC.

It is the networking part of this that I didnít know about. I assume that I need to configure the network in some way so the M32 and Palladium are talking directly to each other. And that is where I thought the switch part comes in. At the moment I have a Linksys WRT54GS v.2 wireless router to play with to see if this will work. I donít have the M32 at my disposal at the moment. But I can go to it to try and make this work. I am doing a few jobs next week where I should have some time to play with this. And I donít need Palladium for those jobs so the playing with it is just to see if I can get it to all work together. 

Any help would be appreciated. Please let me know if you need more information.