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Title: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mike Sokol on April 06, 2014, 07:29:21 PM
Don't know if you've seen this retro analog limiter yet. One of the professors at school sent it to me and asked how well I thought it would work. What do you think?
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 06, 2014, 08:20:00 PM
Looks like an early DJ attachment.

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 07, 2014, 02:46:46 AM
Looks like an early DJ attachment.

It's set too high for DJs!


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Chris Hindle on April 07, 2014, 07:49:18 AM
It's set too high for DJs!
It's RED, what else does a DJ need ? ;D
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: David Morison on April 07, 2014, 08:23:33 AM
Don't know if you've seen this retro analog limiter yet. One of the professors at school sent it to me and asked how well I thought it would work. What do you think?

Amusing, but surely the most likely effect will be the channel faders all residing up near +10?

David.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mike Sokol on April 07, 2014, 09:55:22 AM
Amusing, but surely the most likely effect will be the channel faders all residing up near +10?

David.

Perhaps the output faders should be moved ABOVE the limiter bar. Would that make it an Un-Limiter?  :o
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: frank kayser on April 07, 2014, 10:13:36 AM
Looks like someone was cranking tight on that screw.  They meant it not to move.  :P
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 07, 2014, 11:28:17 AM
Perhaps the output faders should be moved ABOVE the limiter bar. Would that make it an Un-Limiter?

This reminds me of a comment on a photography forum about using an enlarger to make prints smaller than the negatives.  Someone suggested that what they really needed was an ensmaller.


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 07, 2014, 11:53:58 AM
Perhaps the output faders should be moved ABOVE the limiter bar. Would that make it an Un-Limiter?  :o
That would reduce the chance of speaker damage due to under-powering.   :)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 07, 2014, 12:40:30 PM
That is a hard limiter...

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 07, 2014, 12:55:28 PM
That is a hard limiter...

JR

With a pretty severe "knee".
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Hayden J. Nebus on April 07, 2014, 01:12:20 PM
With a pretty severe "knee".

If you drive it too hard, it clips..your fingernails. 
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mike Sokol on April 07, 2014, 10:46:59 PM
With a pretty severe "knee".

Yup  8)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Don Boomer on April 08, 2014, 02:22:49 PM
Bet if you go back in a month the shafts will be sheered off and pushed up to the max.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Jeff Bankston on April 09, 2014, 04:41:29 AM
so for a digital limiter you would draw a large 0(zero).
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: David Morison on April 09, 2014, 02:29:49 PM
so for a digital limiter you would draw a large 0(zero).

Nah, for a digital limiter you just break the fingers of the offending mixperson  ;)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Jeff Bankston on April 09, 2014, 06:26:18 PM
Nah, for a digital limiter you just break the fingers of the offending mixperson  ;)
good one(1) ! l0l !
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on April 09, 2014, 07:30:48 PM
so for a digital limiter you would draw a large 0(zero).
I'm guessing because with digital, you have two values: on (1) and off (0), so any limit applied must naturally limit it to off (0)?
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Art Welter on April 09, 2014, 10:54:30 PM
I'm guessing because with digital, you have two values: on (1) and off (0), so any limit applied must naturally limit it to off (0)?
Jonathan,

With all due respect, digital limitation can have more than two values, as you can clearly see in my personal example submitted below:
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: frank kayser on April 09, 2014, 11:32:47 PM
good one(1) ! l0l !


Isn't that 5?
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Jeff Bankston on April 09, 2014, 11:49:52 PM
just remeber one thing about one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5ab8BOu4LE
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 10, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
Jonathan,

With all due respect, digital limitation can have more than two values, as you can clearly see in my personal example submitted below:
A great example why my table saw is one of these:
www.sawstop.com

I'm careful and alert 99% of the time, but it only takes once.
TJ "still able to count to 10 and very grateful for it" Cornish
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on April 10, 2014, 10:40:01 PM
TJ "still able to count to 10 and very grateful for it" Cornish

I can count to 1,023 if I use binary. I don't have the necessary dexterity in my toes to count to 1,048,575. Maybe one of these days I'll take the time to learn to do binary math on my fingers. That would be nerdy cool.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 11, 2014, 01:46:20 AM
Maybe one of these days I'll take the time to learn to do binary math on my fingers. That would be nerdy cool.

Not cool, but definitely nerdy - I could count and add in binary when I was in my second year of primary school!


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 11, 2014, 02:40:09 AM
Looks like an early DJ attachment.

JR

It needs a second screw to prevent rotation, and a screw style that isn't removable (like used in public toilet fixtures) to really work well for DJs.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 11, 2014, 10:19:49 AM
It needs a second screw to prevent rotation, and a screw style that isn't removable (like used in public toilet fixtures) to really work well for DJs.
That's why I said an "early" DJ attachment...For production it would need to be spot welded in place.

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Russ Davis on April 11, 2014, 10:27:26 AM
...a screw style that isn't removable (like used in public toilet fixtures)...

Or something like this, requiring a unique tool or bit to remove (tamperproof.com).
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 11, 2014, 10:53:00 AM
Set it to minimum and add superglue.


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mike Sokol on April 11, 2014, 09:01:04 PM
Not cool, but definitely nerdy - I could count and add in binary when I was in my second year of primary school!


Steve.

While in my 20's and doing a lot of machine code programming, I figured out how to convert binary to hex to decimal and back in my head. I also had much of the ASCII table memorized and won a lot of bar bets for free drinks (it was a nerdy bar). And I could look at a serial RS-232 feed from a terminal on an o'scope and read off the letters it was sending. Not too fast, mind you. But if it repeated for a second or so I could recognize the patterns.

Nearly 40 years later when my son was taking computer networking class at tech school, I showed him the mental trick on how to do the binary to hex to decimal conversion in his head, and he was able to scare the teacher with these same mental conversions. Nowadays you can get an app for that, but it's really cool to do it inside your head. Never did pick up any girls with this trick though...  ::)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: frank kayser on April 11, 2014, 10:02:14 PM
While in my 20's and doing a lot of machine code programming, I figured out how to convert binary to hex to decimal and back in my head. I also had much of the ASCII table memorized and won a lot of bar bets for free drinks (it was a nerdy bar). And I could look at a serial RS-232 feed from a terminal on an o'scope and read off the letters it was sending. Not too fast, mind you. But if it repeated for a second or so I could recognize the patterns.

Nearly 40 years later when my son was taking computer networking class at tech school, I showed him the mental trick on how to do the binary to hex to decimal conversion in his head, and he was able to scare the teacher with these same mental conversions. Nowadays you can get an app for that, but it's really cool to do it inside your head. Never did pick up any girls with this trick though...  ::)


I'm SO surprised...  :P
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mike Sokol on April 12, 2014, 03:56:04 AM

Never did pick up any girls with this trick though...

I'm SO surprised...  :P

I'm pretty sure that Binary to Hex to Decimal conversions in your head has NEVER been used to pick up a girl in a bar.

"Hey baby, there are 10 types of people in this bar.. those who understand binary, and those who don't. Which one are you?"  8)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 11:44:21 AM
While in my 20's and doing a lot of machine code programming, I figured out how to convert binary to hex to decimal and back in my head. I also had much of the ASCII table memorized and won a lot of bar bets for free drinks (it was a nerdy bar). And I could look at a serial RS-232 feed from a terminal on an o'scope and read off the letters it was sending. Not too fast, mind you. But if it repeated for a second or so I could recognize the patterns.

Nearly 40 years later when my son was taking computer networking class at tech school, I showed him the mental trick on how to do the binary to hex to decimal conversion in his head, and he was able to scare the teacher with these same mental conversions. Nowadays you can get an app for that, but it's really cool to do it inside your head. Never did pick up any girls with this trick though...  ::)

I'm glad my programing experience was simpler than that... C, C++, C#, Objective-C, HTML, and Java are much simpler than machine code.  ;D  I did a rather interesting senior project last fall; we(well I coded most of it but it was a group project) made an iOS app to read temperature with a sensor attached to the headphone port of the device. We used a device developed by the University of Michigan called the Hijack (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/hijack-development-pack-p-865.html) to interface the sensor with the headphone port. They had already done a lot of the hard programing as there was a pre-made library we downloaded and were able to call in our program to talk to the sensor.

(http://i.imgur.com/oFl1B5N.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/wMEensy.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/2DiBcS9.png)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 12, 2014, 12:11:20 PM
If you are going to measure temp, why not do something useful.

You can make a temperature sensor out of a simple diode. The voltage across the junction varies linearly with temperature XmV/degree. I reprogrammed one of my tuner PC boards to be 24 hour programmable thermostat. Added a couple diodes in series fed into one of the microprocessor  A/D inputs to sense room temperature. Added a opto-scr and power triac to turn on and off a 1kW  baseboard heater.  Now my back bedroom is always the perfect temp at night when I need it, and not heated at all during the day.

I prefer coding in assembler.. it's more like analog design with direct cause and effect. High level languages are more abstract and harder for me to get good specific results.

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 12, 2014, 12:20:17 PM
I prefer coding in assembler.. it's more like analog design with direct cause and effect. High level languages are more abstract and harder for me to get good specific results.

I feel the same way.  I enjoy designing analogue circuits but get bored with digital.

I'm o.k. with programming Z80, 8085, etc. and PIC processors at assembly language and/or hex code level but don't have a clue about C+ or Visual Basic.  I can do GWBASIC.

I think we're just old!


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 12:31:26 PM
I feel the same way.  I enjoy designing analogue circuits but get bored with digital.

I'm o.k. with programming Z80, 8085, etc. and PIC processors at assembly language and/or hex code level but don't have a clue about C+ or Visual Basic.  I can do GWBASIC.

I think we're just old!


Steve.

:-) I have a feeling that both of yall have a much deeper understanding of what's actually going on in a computer than I do. I love how modern programming software let's you just drag and drop the UI elements then click the right button to program what the element does(Xcode and Visual Studio do this though they are very different from each other).


If you are going to measure temp, why not do something useful.

You can make a temperature sensor out of a simple diode. The voltage across the junction varies linearly with temperature XmV/degree. I reprogrammed one of my tuner PC boards to be 24 hour programmable thermostat. Added a couple diodes in series fed into one of the microprocessor  A/D inputs to sense room temperature. Added a opto-scr and power triac to turn on and off a 1kW  baseboard heater.  Now my back bedroom is always the perfect temp at night when I need it, and not heated at all during the day.

I prefer coding in assembler.. it's more like analog design with direct cause and effect. High level languages are more abstract and harder for me to get good specific results.

JR

The project was more of a proof of concept. It was originally going to measure humidity but we couldn't get the right sensor. There were pretty severe voltage restrictions with the hijack; I think it would only output around 2.8 volts at very low milliamps to power a sensor. Most of the sensors run at ~5 volts....

Sent from my Nexus 4 running XeonHD + HellsCore b46-t4 using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 12, 2014, 12:49:09 PM
I love how modern programming software let's you just drag and drop the UI elements then click the right button to program what the element does

Whilst that is quite clever and is obviously an efficient way of doing things, I get the feeling that someone else has doe the clever bit and that I wouldn't get the satisfaction of knowing I had created something if all I did was drag and drop pre-programmed elements into place to make it do what I wanted.

I also wonder about some of the younger people I deal with at work sometimes.  I am often shown their ideas for doing something fairly simple which might involve a microprocessor, some logic and I/O and some programming and I think to myself* 'I could achieve that with just a few transistors or 4000 series CMOS ICs'.

I think people now are brainwashed into thinking that everything needs to be computer controlled.

* Actually, I don't think it to myself - I usually tell them!


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 01:01:25 PM
Whilst that is quite clever and is obviously an efficient way of doing things, I get the feeling that someone else has doe the clever bit and that I wouldn't get the satisfaction of knowing I had created something if all I did was drag and drop pre-programmed elements into place to make it do what I wanted.
...


Steve.
There is coding involved though not, for the most part, for the UI. All the logic behind the interface still requires plenty of code, though I'm sure it looks quite a bit different than  what you're used to. There was a lot of trial and error involved in getting the app I mentioned above working, and lots of Google searching to resolve errors. One problem we ran into is the hijack libraries we used had been made in a version of Xcode that was a couple of versions older(3.x versus 5.x) than what I had; reusing that code in the new project required a lot of fixing and random tweaking. I'd fix one error and 20 more would materialize. :-)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/13/bepuqegy.jpg)

Sent from my Nexus 4 running XeonHD + HellsCore b46-t4 using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 12, 2014, 01:24:30 PM
though I'm sure it looks quite a bit different than  what you're used to.

The bottom left area of this picture is Z80 assembly language:

(http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/achim/z80-asm/z80-mon.jpg)

The bit at the top left is hexadecimal.  For simple programmes, it was common to write directly in hex without bothering with the assembler.

We also had to make a circuit board to run it on. Usually something like this:

(http://devster.monkeeh.com/z80/xmonsterz80/p11.jpg)


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 02:13:08 PM
The bottom left area of this picture is Z80 assembly language:

(http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/achim/z80-asm/z80-mon.jpg)

The bit at the top left is hexadecimal.  For simple programmes, it was common to write directly in hex without bothering with the assembler.

We also had to make a circuit board to run it on. Usually something like this:

(http://devster.monkeeh.com/z80/xmonsterz80/p11.jpg)


Steve.

Interesting, but well out of my range of knowledge. :-)

Sent from my Nexus 4 running XeonHD + HellsCore b46-t4 using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 12, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
Whilst that is quite clever and is obviously an efficient way of doing things, I get the feeling that someone else has doe the clever bit and that I wouldn't get the satisfaction of knowing I had created something if all I did was drag and drop pre-programmed elements into place to make it do what I wanted....

I've done some assembly language programming on 680xx, 6502, and and 80xx architectures decades ago, and have gone through various higher level languages such as Fortran, Pascal, Modula 2, C, C++, C# and Java.  I still do some work in Fortran, there is still nothing that can beat the optimizations of a good Fortran compiler except hand-rolled assembly.   

I'm happy today to reuse someone else's clever work. I'm personally more interested in the easiest route to solve a problem. 

On the flip side, we still use Fortran for algorithms that run day after day on supercomputers.  When you have thousands of computers all crunching the same data set in parallel even a small performance gain pays off in cost or turnaround. We still worry about keeping the inner kernel data the L1 cache, but do it in a higher level than assembler.  Actually, writing GPU-based code even in C is kin to assembly language programming.  5 different types of memory, each with different performance characteristics, really makes you think about how to structure the solution to a problem to keep 900+ cores spinning.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 12, 2014, 05:37:24 PM
I feel the same way.  I enjoy designing analogue circuits but get bored with digital.

I'm o.k. with programming Z80, 8085, etc. and PIC processors at assembly language and/or hex code level but don't have a clue about C+ or Visual Basic.  I can do GWBASIC.

I think we're just old!


Steve.

If you think digital is boring maybe you can help me figure out how to finesse the FFT code I'm working on. I'm getting the level info OK but now I want to extract the phase too, easy peasy, just take the arctan of the real divided by the imaginary or vice versa,,,  8)

BTW there is no processor instruction for arctan so I'll need to write that too, or wus out and use a C  library. C even has a library instruction that does the divide too, so I guess that's how the point and click guys do it.  8)

Almost ten years ago when I started working on my drum tuner I literally tried to do it with analog and maybe some 4000 series CMOS thrown in for good measure, but even I quickly figured out that analog was just not up to the task, too many nonlinear processes with need for decision making programmed in. So I taught myself to program the little embedded processors and now I'm graduating to DSP, still a cheap few dollars of silicon about the size of my pinky finger-nail. 

While I've shared this before, IMO we are only using a fraction of the capability of modern digital mixing platforms (programmed decision making). I guess they are moving slow so they don't scare the children, while I suspect the kids get it. It's the old farts signing the POs that are too easily scared.

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 05:56:21 PM
While I've shared this before, IMO we are only using a fraction of the capability of modern digital mixing platforms (programmed decision making). I guess they are moving slow so they don't scare the children, while I suspect the kids get it. It's the old farts signing the POs that are too easily scared.

JR

The next 5-10 years should be rather interesting when it comes to digital mixer technology. IMO it really needs to move more in the direction of the Avid S3L system with separate surface, processing, and I/O.  A truly open system would let you keep adding I/O and DSP for as many channels as needed.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running XeonHD + HellsCore b46-t4 using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mike Sokol on April 12, 2014, 09:17:35 PM
With a pretty severe "knee".
I finally found the "soft knee" version of this limiter today at a church in Little Rock. Check it out.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 09:22:16 PM
I finally found the "soft knee" version of this limiter today at a church in Little Rock. Check it out.

Lol, it works till someone cranks the channel gain....

Sent from my Nexus 4 running XeonHD + HellsCore b46-t4 using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 13, 2014, 02:17:14 AM
While I've shared this before, IMO we are only using a fraction of the capability of modern digital mixing platforms (programmed decision making). I guess they are moving slow so they don't scare the children, while I suspect the kids get it. It's the old farts signing the POs that are too easily scared.

Definitely.  But once you have enough channels and eq and effects capability on every channel and bus, all that is really left is the user interface.

At the moment, that is largely set by the manufacturer but there's no reason why every control cannot be customised to suit the user, by the user.

I'm also expecting to see a large format control flat control surface soon.  Like an i-pad but larger.  More like a TV on its side.  Touch screens of this size exist already so why not?

I sort of predicted the mixer in a rack with a separate controller back in the 1980s.  Back then I was sure it could be done with an RS232 link.


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 13, 2014, 05:29:19 AM
...
I'm also expecting to see a large format control flat control surface soon.  Like an i-pad but larger.  More like a TV on its side.  Touch screens of this size exist already so why not?
...

It already exists: http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven-mtx/ (http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven-mtx/)

Lots of people are already integrating ProTools and Waves Soundgrid into their consoles, and most everyone is doing live multitrack recording,  so one possible next step (prior to Johns self-mixing system) is to replace the console with a low latency recording system.   Stagebox is the DA, AD, and processing and recording.  FOH is a wireless-controlled, expandable flat screen interface akin to the Raven.

Or, for those who like physical buttons Yamaha and Avid have very sophisticated (and expensive) physical control surfaces, but nothing else today has the customization of a flat display.

The problem today with most DAWs today is they are bloated with features (and bugs), there is no way I would want ProTools or Cubase in the critical path of a concert, but maybe Nuendo Live: http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/nuendo/nuendo_system_solutions.html (http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/nuendo/nuendo_system_solutions.html)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 13, 2014, 05:46:32 AM
It already exists: http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven-mtx/ (http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven-mtx/)

I had a feeling that it would already exist when I was typing.  Much like all of my other brilliant inventions!


Steve.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 13, 2014, 10:52:10 AM
I had a feeling that it would already exist when I was typing.  Much like all of my other brilliant inventions!


Steve.
The ancients are always stealing my ideas...  8)

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 13, 2014, 11:48:50 AM
If you think digital is boring maybe you can help me figure out how to finesse the FFT code I'm working on. I'm getting the level info OK but now I want to extract the phase too, easy peasy, just take the arctan of the real divided by the imaginary or vice versa,,,  8)

John, if you are working on the x86 platform check out Intel's MKL.  You'll get FFTs coded for SSE and AVX vector instruction sets, power of 2 or mixed radix, automatic parallel execution across all available cores.  Super fast.  There are vector-based trig functions in the library.
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 13, 2014, 12:16:27 PM
John, if you are working on the x86 platform check out Intel's MKL.  You'll get FFTs coded for SSE and AVX vector instruction sets, power of 2 or mixed radix, automatic parallel execution across all available cores.  Super fast.  There are vector-based trig functions in the library.

I was joking... I'm actually working with a 16 bit fixed point DSP chip from Microchip. They have the arctan instruction I need in a C library, but so far I've managed to do it in all with assembly so I may code that routine too. I don't need to compute phase for every FFT point, just a couple louder results, so I don't even need to make the calculation very efficient.

sorry for the veer...

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Stu McDoniel on April 14, 2014, 09:01:22 PM
I was joking... I'm actually working with a 16 bit fixed point DSP chip from Microchip. They have the arctan instruction I need in a C library, but so far I've managed to do it in all with assembly so I may code that routine too. I don't need to compute phase for every FFT point, just a couple louder results, so I don't even need to make the calculation very efficient.

sorry for the veer...

JR
A computer could do that for you.  ;)
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 14, 2014, 10:34:44 PM
A computer could do that for you.  ;)
Not for around $5

JR
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Jeff Bankston on April 15, 2014, 12:10:23 AM
analog ? i thought you said captains log
Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 15, 2014, 12:12:47 AM
:-D

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/15/ytugu9ep.jpg)

Sent from my Nexus 4 running XeonHD + HellsCore b46-t4 using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Analog Limiter
Post by: James Feenstra on April 22, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
It already exists: http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven-mtx/ (http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven-mtx/)
I saw this a while back and I'm still not sure how I feel about it....I like the tactile response of faders, knobs and buttons.