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Title: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 20, 2014, 08:32:49 AM
I had a discussion with someone on another forum and am curious how others route FOH monitor mixes.
The EQ in question is the channel strip and there is an inline EQ (graph or para) to EQ the overall mix.
The imaginary console will allow you to select any of those configurations.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Cailen Waddell on January 20, 2014, 08:45:31 AM
Not sure I understand the question....  But prefader aux/mix...  Mix has a parametric on it that is typically all we need.  We could potentially insert a graphic before or after if needed, but generally I find if we need the graphic, something else is wrong in out setup....
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 20, 2014, 10:36:41 AM
I learned PRE/PRE (didn't we all?), but now use a dupe strip often as I can. In my experience, some vocalists benefit from the "edge" that a channel-inserted comp shaves.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Kirby Yarbrough on January 20, 2014, 10:44:56 AM
some vocalists benefit from the "edge" that a channel-inserted comp shaves.

A very diplomatic term.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Josh Hana on January 20, 2014, 10:59:28 AM
I duplicate all the inputs for monitors if I can afford it, and then I run them post fade. This way I can assign the lead mic(s) to a VCA then bury the rest of the monitor channels in a bottom layer. If the singer asks for more/less, or if something goes wrong, I can grab the VCA which will always be on my top layer.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 20, 2014, 11:54:58 AM
I learned PRE/PRE (didn't we all?), but now use a dupe strip often as I can. In my experience, some vocalists benefit from the "edge" that a channel-inserted comp shaves.

This is the method I have started using recently.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2014, 12:11:04 PM
If I had enough channels I'd use dupe strips but for now I do Pre-EQ, Pre-fader.

Unfortunately I can't do Pre-Comp on this board, so I have to decide for myself just how badly I need a compressor on each channel.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 20, 2014, 12:14:44 PM
I run post EQ/compression and prefader; only because that's the only way the mixer I have will do it. I also don't have the extra channels to duplicate channels for monitor purposes; it works for us but probably isn't the best solution. :-)
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 20, 2014, 01:52:55 PM
My ability to use duplicate channels came about after I moved to the digital world with my purchase of the Soundcraft Expression. The board allows channel duplication on any layer and up to 66 channels to mix.

My experience with APB analog was an eye opener. My experience with Soundcraft digital is like looking directly into the sun.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Greg_Cameron on January 20, 2014, 02:59:50 PM
I didn't vote because I've been doing a combo. Mostly I do monitors from FOH pre fader/EQ/dynamics. But occasionally I'll switch a mix bus to post EQ if it's better for the talent using that mix. And then on other occasions, I'll dupe the channel if it's needed to get the best combo of monitor vs. FOH isolation. The one thing on the Avid Venue that drives me batty is when you have the aux buses set to pre EQ & dynamics, the send is also pre mute. I hate that as when I mute a channel, I want the sends muted too. Apparently this topology is not possible with the way Venue is designed. If you want the sends post mute, you must set the bus to post EQ. Such as life.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 20, 2014, 03:24:19 PM
As to the responses that are pre fader post EQ.
Is this your choice if you are sending from a strip and not using a duplicate channel strip?
I'm curious as to how you manage to adjust strip EQ for the FOH mix and not affect the what the musician is hearing.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 20, 2014, 03:28:58 PM
Not sure I understand the question....  But prefader aux/mix...  Mix has a parametric on it that is typically all we need.  We could potentially insert a graphic before or after if needed, but generally I find if we need the graphic, something else is wrong in out setup....
To clarify...
If you are sending an AUX mix to the stage for monitor application, do you prefer to send that mix pre strip EQ or post strip EQ?
In other words, if you adjust the strip EQ, do want it to affect the FOH mix only or the FOH mix and the monitor mix.
The para or graph choice was just to note that there is an overall EQ on that mix buss.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Patrick Tracy on January 20, 2014, 03:35:29 PM
As to the responses that are pre fader post EQ.
Is this your choice if you are sending from a strip and not using a duplicate channel strip?
I'm curious as to how you manage to adjust strip EQ for the FOH mix and not affect the what the musician is hearing.

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,93792.msg862393.html#msg862393
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 20, 2014, 05:37:35 PM
In olden days, when EQ was scarce, we would adjust the channel strip for the incoming variances (e.g. SM58/57 correction), and outboard was for transfer function (keep the Perkins & 1" radials alive).

It was good discipline and served me well as the number of mixes/submixes grew.

Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 20, 2014, 05:47:37 PM
To clarify...
If you are sending an AUX mix to the stage for monitor application, do you prefer to send that mix pre strip EQ or post strip EQ?
In other words, if you adjust the strip EQ, do want it to affect the FOH mix only or the FOH mix and the monitor mix.
The para or graph choice was just to note that there is an overall EQ on that mix buss.

Keith,
I can't think of a time when I've wanted the FOH EQ to effect my monitors, or vice versa. Good practice, at least in my old man book, treats these as two separate functions with separate needs altogether.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Josh Millward on January 20, 2014, 07:51:52 PM
As to the responses that are pre fader post EQ.
Is this your choice if you are sending from a strip and not using a duplicate channel strip?
I'm curious as to how you manage to adjust strip EQ for the FOH mix and not affect the what the musician is hearing.
The method I have learned through use, which has treated me pretty well so far, is:
1. On the input strip you should adjust the incoming signal to correct for things like excessive proximity and other microphone peculiar details like presence peaks and the like. Essentially making the input sound right.
2. On the output EQ you should adjust the mix appropriately for the destination. In the case of the monitor mix you may need to notch for feedback or roll off some high/low end. This way what you are mixing at the console sounds right for whatever destination to which you are sending it: recording, broadcast, fill loudspeakers, etc.

So, to that end, I would prefer the EQ to always come before the Aux outputs, regardless to the Prefader/postfader control for an aux output.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Tim Halligan on January 21, 2014, 12:25:06 AM
I use a hybrid...

I usually - 99 times out of 100 - work on an analogue desk, so I use pre-fade, post eq...

But I duplicate the vocal channels so that I can have a separate eq for FOH and monitors, and not have the potential problems of compression in the wedges.

Cheers,
Tim
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on January 21, 2014, 04:33:50 AM
As to the responses that are pre fader post EQ.
Is this your choice if you are sending from a strip and not using a duplicate channel strip?
I'm curious as to how you manage to adjust strip EQ for the FOH mix and not affect the what the musician is hearing.

I use Post EQ / pre Fader most of the time. I may use post fader in specific occasion, like CDs played during the show. I may duplicate some strips (lead vocals), but this is rather rare.

When I modify EQ for the FoH during the show, it also affects the monitor. Is this a good thing or not ? 
If the correction compensates for the now crowded venue, then it would be better that the monitor is not affected.
If the correction results from the talent now having a more harsh or poping voice because he gets excited, then smoothing the highs a bit or raising the high pass in both FoH and monitor is a good thing. It is all the more true in small venues where monitors are part of the FoH sound.

What I do:
- I EQ'ed my FoH rather flat
- I EQ'ed the monitors to sound close to the FoH, slightly brighter.
- I EQ each channel strip to sound good in the FoH
- if the talent is not comfortable with the monitor, I modify the monitor EQ.

Does it work well ?
Well... most of the time "yes", sometimes "no". It happens that the artist did not feel very comfortable during the show, but his manager tells him the sound in the venue was great. I am afraid it would not be otherwise if I switched to pre-eq or duplicated every single channel strips. Doing monitors from FoH is like being deaf once the show has started. If there were a way to reach the same quality as a dedicated monitor engineer, then there wouldn't be monitor engineers anymore.
I also think there are tons of other problems much more important than the pre/post EQ debate. Keeping a low stage SPL is much more efficient than any EQ in the monitor.

For years, I have been struggling with monitors. The best improvement was to make the monitor EQ to sound like the FoH, it definitely helped. Also, I usually need only slight adjustments during the show.

There is a reason to not duplicate channel strips: time. I do only one-offs, and I have to manage lights as well (small venue - no money). The soundcheck starts at 6PM and the band is to play at 9PM. If the soundcheck lasts more than one hour and a half, installation on stage included, the band gets tired. Bad for the show. It happened to me that the FoH sound was OK, the monitor mix was usable (not great) according to the artist. He asked for slight additional modification. And it ended up in another 30 minutes soundcheck trying to modify everything, and everything getting worse and worse. For the same reason, I often accept not so great sounding micings. I have troubles with that upright piano, but I go ahead because there are other instruments and I do not want to spend too much time on it.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 21, 2014, 07:34:47 AM

Keith,
I can't think of a time when I've wanted the FOH EQ to effect my monitors, or vice versa. Good practice, at least in my old man book, treats these as two separate functions with separate needs altogether.
This is how I look at it Bob and , when possible, run monitor sends pre/pre. Been doing it this way for years and it has worked out pretty well.
The double channel strip is a great solution if they extra strips are available.
I  don't want to have any problems with potential monitor feedback if, for an example, I end up needing to add a bit of 2.5k to a vocal.
This only applies for monitors.
I am curious if this is as common a mode of operation as I thought it would be.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Matthew Knischewsky on January 21, 2014, 08:33:17 AM
Keith,
Almost always I prefer pre/pre because I don't want the monitors changing once they're set. If I do end up needing to EQ a channel to the monitors I'll set up a duplicate channel with post EQ sends. In the past I've set up consoles with duplicate channels for everything going to monitors but I rarely needed to adjust EQ so my SOP now is pre/pre.

Of course there's some exceptions...If I was on tour I'd do separate channels for FOH and Monitors because I'd get to know how the artist expects their monitors to sound. Or if I was mixing IEMs from FOH.

Matty K
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Nick Enright on January 21, 2014, 02:24:30 PM
I had a discussion with someone on another forum and am curious how others route FOH monitor mixes.
The EQ in question is the channel strip and there is an inline EQ (graph or para) to EQ the overall mix.
The imaginary console will allow you to select any of those configurations.

On my console the auxes are pre-insert/eq/fader... that's just how it's setup. (AH2400)

On a digital desk I would likely duplicate channels and set the whole monitor system up with it's own page. Depends on how much time I've got. If I didn't have a lot of time I'd set up the desk so it was more similar to what I'm used to.

Nick
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Craig Montgomery on January 22, 2014, 02:56:55 AM
As to the responses that are pre fader post EQ.
Is this your choice if you are sending from a strip and not using a duplicate channel strip?
I'm curious as to how you manage to adjust strip EQ for the FOH mix and not affect the what the musician is hearing.

You do affect what the musicians are hearing when you adjust strip EQ.  You have to keep that in mind.  If the MON and FOH mixes are tuned well, it's not that big of a deal.  I think it's better than the alternative, which is no EQ on the monitor input channels.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on January 22, 2014, 03:38:35 AM
You do affect what the musicians are hearing when you adjust strip EQ.  You have to keep that in mind.  If the MON and FOH mixes are tuned well, it's not that big of a deal.  I think it's better than the alternative, which is no EQ on the monitor input channels.
That is my opinion too. However I did use pre/pre configuration from time to time, and the artists were happy with the monitor mix. I guess adjusting levels in the monitor mix is 90% of the work. Most artists can work with just that. Monitor is a technical mix, musos are rather tolerant as long as :
- they hear themselves
- they are confident that what comes out from the FoH is good.

I had artists complaining about what they hear in the monitor. They came into the venue, were satisfied with the sound and told me: "don't bother any longer with the monitor, that's OK in the FoH".
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Rob Dellwood on January 23, 2014, 12:49:49 AM
On analog boards (pre fader, post EQ), I try always to run separate FOH and MON channels for the main artist /lead vocalist so FOH changes will not affect the monitor mix. Don't usually have enough spare channels to do the other vocals.  When running one channel for both FOH and mons, I am surprised at how many people can tell when I am making subtle changes in their EQ for FOH, since it affects their monitor mixes. Some notice everything, and others don't seem to notice or care, so long as there are no feedback issues. 

On digital boards, I set up as many duplicate vocal channels as I have available so they all get separate monitor channels.  I try to spend time getting the stage monitors to sound great with the vocal mics.  I think that goes a long way to having happy artists.  Once you get them done, you don't usually need to adjust again except for overall volume as needed.  The ability to use an iPad or tablet to be on stage and stand next to the artists while working on their monitors is invaluable. 
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Steve M Smith on January 23, 2014, 01:47:19 AM
On analog boards (pre fader, post EQ)

I always assumed that analogue mixers were pre eq only. 

I have a related question.  Would I be correct in assuming that monitor sends on analogue are also pre insert?


Steve.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 23, 2014, 04:10:02 AM
I always assumed that analogue mixers were pre eq only. 

I have a related question.  Would I be correct in assuming that monitor sends on analogue are also pre insert?


Steve.

Depends on the board. My analog board's axes are all selectable in regards to pre or post fader(global for each aux) but are always post fader and insert.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 23, 2014, 07:15:28 AM
You do affect what the musicians are hearing when you adjust strip EQ.  You have to keep that in mind.  If the MON and FOH mixes are tuned well, it's not that big of a deal.  I think it's better than the alternative, which is no EQ on the monitor input channels.
I have always tried to do the monitor mix pre/pre and use the buss EQ to tune and it has worked well for me for many years.
Having read these responses, I may try instruments post EQ and keep vocals pre or on a duplicate strip.
But so far, no complaints so what ain't broke....
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Jeff Carter on January 23, 2014, 09:55:28 AM
Depends on the board. My analog board's axes are all selectable in regards to pre or post fader(global for each aux) but are always post fader and insert.

And just to make life really interesting, there are some analog consoles where the pre-fade aux sends can be either pre-EQ or post-EQ depending on the position of a jumper inside the console...
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 23, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
So the answer for this question (as with adult incontinence) seems to be: Depends!
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 23, 2014, 11:32:05 AM
So the answer for this question (as with adult incontinence) seems to be: Depends!
True . (Depends LOL!)
However, as with the people I asked in person, the choice is sometimes driven by what the console hard config has been in the past rather than what the person actually wanted. So we get used to doing it that way.
These days, we have MUCH better choices for configurations...thankfully!!
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Patrick Tracy on January 23, 2014, 11:58:02 AM
I always assumed that analogue mixers were pre eq only. 

I have a related question.  Would I be correct in assuming that monitor sends on analogue are also pre insert?


Steve.

Two examples of small analog boards:

Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro: preamp -> insert -> HPF -> pre sends -> eq -> mute -> fader -> post sends & direct out -> pan -> bus assign.

I modded mine to move the pre sends after the eq and mute.

Soundcraft GB2R: polarity -> preamp -> HPF -> insert & direct out (pre) -> (mute* ->) pre sends (mod) -> eq -> (mute* ->) pre sends (default) -> mute* -> fader -> post sends & direct out (post) -> pan -> bus assign.

*Mute is one DPDT switch per channel. (Mute) preceding send affects only that send. This is to make pre eq sends follow channel muting.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Steve M Smith on January 23, 2014, 12:45:30 PM
This thread has been quite interesting to me.  I had always assumed that every analogue mixer I have used over the last twenty five years had pre-eq monitor sends but I'm not sure now!


Steve.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 23, 2014, 01:33:55 PM
This thread has been quite interesting to me.  I had always assumed that every analogue mixer I have used over the last twenty five years had pre-eq monitor sends but I'm not sure now!


Steve.

The execrable Yammy MG series "pre" sends are post EQ, pre fader.  Our local PAC has 2 of them.  The stage hands fight over who has to use them when the 20 year old Soundcrafts are in the shop.

Oh, the Soundcrafts are being replaced with X32s.  I'd rather pitch the Yammys in favor of the X32. Grrr.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 23, 2014, 01:39:45 PM
The execrable Yammy MG series "pre" sends are post EQ, pre fader.  Our local PAC has 2 of them.  The stage hands fight over who has to use them when the 20 year old Soundcrafts are in the shop.

Oh, the Soundcrafts are being replaced with X32s.  I'd rather pitch the Yammys in favor of the X32. Grrr.

So let's just call the MG the "X-ecrable 32"...

How's the weather down south???  The latest 32 we've had here was 32 below last night.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 23, 2014, 02:09:27 PM
So let's just call the MG the "X-ecrable 32"...

How's the weather down south???  The latest 32 we've had here was 32 below last night.

We're in the balmy tropics, a thrilling 13°F right now.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on January 23, 2014, 02:56:34 PM
Just to be contrary-and most of you know far more than me, but I have always run post-fade, post eq.  That being said, program material is traditional church music-primarily vocals with a piano-and most talent is from our church so they don't know any different, but even visiting groups and groups from our church that travel seem to like it this way.

A couple  other factors-relatively small, but very lively venue, so mon mix affects the house significantly (it is what it is!), and the pastor often tweaks/judges the mix from the platform where he mainly hears mon mix.  Also, some groups used to travelling to smaller churches are accustomed to "mixing themselves" with mic placement so an mon mix that reflects FOH helps them as well.
Title: Re: FOH monitor mix sends
Post by: Patrick Tracy on January 23, 2014, 03:45:23 PM
Just to be contrary-and most of you know far more than me, but I have always run post-fade, post eq.

I tend to run effects (if in monitors) and backing tracks post fader when possible.