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Title: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Jerome Casinger on July 01, 2014, 12:16:59 PM
I have two gigs this week with a reputable "real" country band in our region.  I just got an email that there spot to play got bumped up which is really going to cut into some of my time ( I dont have the option to show up earlier and they are understanding of that).  They are a pretty good sized band and have worked themselves completely out of the bar business and travel alot.

I am running an X32, and my QSC KW rig outdoors for this one.  I have only ever mixed an electric violin before.  He has a fiddle and is the star of their show at points, just curious what is protocol in "real country music" (the older stuff).  Should there be any verb or leave it dry?  Any tricks EQ wise that you veterans could impart or experiences to help since my set up time has just been cut.  I am not exactly sure what set up he is running in the fiddle, just told he only needs an XLR to hook up.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Gary Fitzpatrick on July 01, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
I have two gigs this week with a reputable "real" country band in our region.  I just got an email that there spot to play got bumped up which is really going to cut into some of my time ( I dont have the option to show up earlier and they are understanding of that).  They are a pretty good sized band and have worked themselves completely out of the bar business and travel alot.

I am running an X32, and my QSC KW rig outdoors for this one.  I have only ever mixed an electric violin before.  He has a fiddle and is the star of their show at points, just curious what is protocol in "real country music" (the older stuff).  Should there be any verb or leave it dry?  Any tricks EQ wise that you veterans could impart or experiences to help since my set up time has just been cut.  I am not exactly sure what set up he is running in the fiddle, just told he only needs an XLR to hook up.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

I know over here in Ireland alot of the traditional Irish fiddle players are using the DPA 4099 mic....I find them absolutely fantastic, and require very little EQ to make them sound natural. Sometimes they can be a small bit feedback prone if you are using loud monitors....as far as I remember its between 1 and 2 k, but dont quote me on that.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 01, 2014, 12:36:52 PM
I have a few friends who play fiddle and the tones range from smooth and warm to hyperdermically harsh.  Each one needs different treatment so I don't think there is any generic advice to be given unfortunately.


Steve.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 01, 2014, 12:45:49 PM
Listen to any recordings they have online to see (hear) how they sit it in the mix.  As usual, EQ a window in any backing instruments to let the fiddle shine through. If they want a real fiddle sound rather than an electric sound, look in the 4-6K range for the presence and an octave above that for the sparkle. 

Pickups and transducers seldom have much sparkle...
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Milt Hathaway on July 01, 2014, 01:58:15 PM
...he only needs an XLR to hook up.

In that case I'll bet he's got his tone and effects taken care of. Every fiddler I've ever dealt with either played straight into a 58 and liked that dry western swing tone that comes from it, or had a fully-equipped pedal board and worked it as well as most guitarists work theirs.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, honestly. Try to get in touch directly with the fiddler prior to the gig if you can, though.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 01, 2014, 02:04:18 PM
depending on how quiet the stage is and how much of the nuances of his/her playing you want to pick up, and condenser mic would be a good choice.

EQ depends on the instrument some of course though, listen to it on stage and see what it sounds like.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 01, 2014, 02:09:09 PM
depending on how quiet the stage is and how much of the nuances of his/her playing you want to pick up, and condenser mic would be a good choice.

EQ depends on the instrument some of course though, listen to it on stage and see what it sounds like.

Player has his own system.

Do you ever read the thread before you post?
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: lindsay Dean on July 01, 2014, 02:22:17 PM
Player has his own system.

Do you ever read the thread before you post?
:o
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 01, 2014, 02:29:37 PM
Player has his own system.

Do you ever read the thread before you post?

Do you just think you need to be a jerk everytime you post?
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 01, 2014, 03:01:49 PM
Do you just think you need to be a jerk everytime you post?

Well come on, man- the OP says that all he's getting from the player is an XLR feed, so discussing mic choices is sorta out of line. The OP is asking for EQ/fx suggestions, not mic preferences!

So if you missed that in the OP, that could be the source of confusion.

-Ray
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Jerome Casinger on July 01, 2014, 03:43:17 PM
Do you guys use any verb/effects, specific types to make it sit better in the mix?

I know I can fig it out, if it really is just a go with it, I have no problem with that, my setup time has just been cut dramatically and its the only instrument I am not familiar with so just looking for a good starting point, or if there is a "norm" for country fiddle players.

Thanks again everyone, can always count on the forum for advice (and a little humor). 
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 01, 2014, 05:14:53 PM
Do you guys use any verb/effects, specific types to make it sit better in the mix?

I know I can fig it out, if it really is just a go with it, I have no problem with that, my setup time has just been cut dramatically and its the only instrument I am not familiar with so just looking for a good starting point, or if there is a "norm" for country fiddle players.

Thanks again everyone, can always count on the forum for advice (and a little humor).

If he doesn't have his own FX, you'll probably be told if anything is needed.  And you can always just ask him...but I wouldn't go using anything but EQ unless they ask for it. 
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Tomm Williams on July 01, 2014, 06:00:51 PM
Unless you've worked with said band a great deal, I would suggest avoiding any FX or EQ tricks. Just get him clear in the mix and let his dynamics do the rest. If there is something obviously lacking address it but otherwise tread lightly. Bluegrass/Acoustic folks are paticularly hostile about playing with their sound..........be careful.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Jerome Casinger on July 01, 2014, 06:09:13 PM
I got some insight from him, sounds like he is a good player but doesn't know sound well.  He basically said one gig the sound guy made him sound better than he has ever heard, and the last festival he sounded terrible.  I inquired but not much more info was given.  Lol.  Sounds like it is a go with it kind of instrument, so I will do just that!  Appreciate it!
Title: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: DavidTurner on July 01, 2014, 07:01:04 PM
Most fiddle pickups are really harsh in the three to 4K region so some judicial cuts in that area are usually called for. you won't need anything below about 300 cycles so ta hi pass filter will help there. The body of the violin lives in the 400 800 region so I always try to enhance that to get the warmth of the body. This is from a guy who has mixed lots of fiddles in 30 years of mixing country bands.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 01, 2014, 07:50:05 PM
Most fiddle pickups are really harsh in the three to 4K region so some judicial cuts in that area are usually called for. you won't need anything below about 300 cycles so ta hi pass filter will help there. The body of the violin lives in the 400 800 region so I always try to enhance that to get the warmth of the body. This is from a guy who has mixed lots of fiddles in 30 years of mixing country bands.

Thanks, David, for confirming what my ears tell me.  And sadly a fiddle doesn't require a pickup to sound brittle and screechy around 3kHz.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 02, 2014, 01:54:58 AM
And sadly a fiddle doesn't require a pickup to sound brittle and screechy around 3kHz.

No.  A young child learning to play one in the house next door can achieve that without any kind of amplification!


Steve.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 02, 2014, 02:04:20 AM
Most fiddle pickups are really harsh in the three to 4K region so some judicial cuts in that area are usually called for. you won't need anything below about 300 cycles so ta hi pass filter will help there. The body of the violin lives in the 400 800 region so I always try to enhance that to get the warmth of the body. This is from a guy who has mixed lots of fiddles in 30 years of mixing country bands.

The open G string of the fiddle is 196, so I wouldn't toss things out at 300.  You'd be losing almost the whole low octave...

As to the "screech" range of the fiddle:

The rosin used will make a big difference.  I prefer to use Liebenzahler Gold myself.  That alone takes care of the greater part of the more strident overtones.  For really problematic rigs, a light mute will help IF you can get the player to try it.  Being a player yourself sometimes helps.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Ben Brunskill on July 02, 2014, 04:46:55 AM
The open G string of the fiddle is 196, so I wouldn't toss things out at 300.  You'd be losing almost the whole low octave...

I agree. Bluegrass players like their instruments to sound very natural, and knocking off the lows won’t make you popular. I find the standard piezo type pickup to be very scratchy and harsh around 3-4K so be prepared with a narrow Q cut.
Sometimes a small amount of short reverb helps to return the ‘air' of the real instrument that those nasty piezo pickups loose.
You could also possible put a mic on the fiddle and use the mic in the house and the pickup in the monitors, but I’d ask first.

I use an AT Pro35 on fiddle/violin.
Title: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: DavidTurner on July 02, 2014, 08:33:33 AM
The open E string on the electric bass guitar is 40 cycles or so, but for decades we routinely hi passed our sound systems at 80 cycles and many of the classic bass amps that are love by bass players and engineers alike won't reproduce 40 cycles. Likewise, low e on an acoustic guitar is around 80 hz, but most often engineers hi pass them around 100 and still apply deep cuts in the 100 to 200 hz range.

Often the most important tonal properties of an instrument are not its fundamental frequencies but its overtone series - especially the first harmonic - on the fiddle the 400 to 800 range.

Yes, fiddles are inherently screechy. Contact pick ups accentuate that.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 02, 2014, 08:40:27 AM
The open Estring on the electric bass guitar is also 40 cycles or so, but for years we routinely half past our sound systems and 80 cycles. So it seems to me that often the most important total aspects of an instrument have nothing to do with the fundamentals. The overtones create this characteristic tone of instruments, not necessarily the fundamentals.

The El bass has its own amp and presence from the stage...

Simply applying a radical HPF to anything is bad practice.  You have to listen.  Dial it up until the sound starts to change, then back off a tad.  Especially since in the case of a transducer randomly dumping your LF won't help with the concern about a harsh sound.

That's the way too set HPF.

As a fiddler myself I'd prefer your standard 80 or 100hz filter.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 02, 2014, 09:06:01 AM
I can do amazing tricks with a fiddle. For starters I can balance one on my nose.
 
Or I can do what Dick suggests and make it sound right.
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 02, 2014, 11:23:10 AM
I can do amazing tricks with a fiddle. For starters I can balance one on my nose.
 
Or I can do what Dick suggests and make it sound right.

Sometimes the only solution is to butter their bow...
Title: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: DavidTurner on July 02, 2014, 01:29:21 PM
 ...
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 02, 2014, 01:35:42 PM
Sometimes the only solution is to butter their bow...

A typo entered into a search for "bow butter" brought some unexpected (NSFW) results.

From the concept of tone, so much depends on how the instrument addresses the microphone, and that's ultimately up to the player.  It never fails that right after I scoop out a bunch of 3kHz, the player moves a couple of inches and the sound is dark and muddy....
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Stu McDoniel on July 02, 2014, 06:26:50 PM
I got some insight from him, sounds like he is a good player but doesn't know sound well.  He basically said one gig the sound guy made him sound better than he has ever heard, and the last festival he sounded terrible.  I inquired but not much more info was given.  Lol.  Sounds like it is a go with it kind of instrument, so I will do just that!  Appreciate it!
Wow...now there is a whole lot of technical information on what he likes for his sound!  Choose either a dynamic or condensor and put it up in the air and be done with it.   A Shure 57 or Audix I5 will do the trick for you.   I have used 57's   or had singers flip a vox Shure 58 up and play into that.   I have used the AKG CS1000 and liked that as well.   
I have worked with fiddle players that use a direct line/pickup and microphone at the same time.   Your not splitting hairs here. 
Title: Re: Any Tricks to a fiddle?
Post by: Rob Spence on July 02, 2014, 06:30:47 PM
Wow...now there is a whole lot of technical information on what he likes for his sound!  Choose either a dynamic or condensor and put it up in the air and be done with it.   A Shure 57 or Audix I5 will do the trick for you.   I have used 57's   or had singers flip a vox Shure 58 up and play into that.   I have used the AKG CS1000 and liked that as well.   
I have worked with fiddle players that use a direct line/pickup and microphone at the same time.   Your not splitting hairs here.

The fiddle supplies an XLR, as stated in the OP.


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