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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Sam Higuera on January 22, 2017, 07:25:42 pm

Title: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 22, 2017, 07:25:42 pm
I have 2x18JBL custom subwoofers (2000watts each). Also lab grupen amplification, and im looking to buying new/second hand small/medium format passive array cabinets for live audio rock gigs.

Can anyone suggest any models to look for that you guys think sounds great to set a sound equipment with my subwoofers???
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 22, 2017, 08:00:07 pm
I have 2x18JBL custom subwoofers (2000watts each). Also lab grupen amplification, and im looking to buying new/second hand small/medium format passive array cabinets for live audio rock gigs.

Can anyone suggest any models to look for that you guys think sounds great to set a sound equipment with my subwoofers???
You said "array cabinets".  I assume you mean that you want to use more than 1 per side?  or something else?

Exactly what do you mean by that?

Are you looking for something that actually arrays without interference-or just something that has "array" in the name?

It can mean different things to different people.

How many subs do you have?  What sort of size areas are you looking to cover?

What sort of budget do you have?

You said "lab Gruppen amplification"..  That could mean many different things.  How much power-how many channels do you have for the mains.

Details will HELP A LOT in getting useful answers.

Without the details, you can get all kinds of responses that give you suggestions for gear that does not apply to your needs.

Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 22, 2017, 08:07:30 pm
I have 2x18JBL custom subwoofers (2000watts each). Also lab grupen amplification, and im looking to buying new/second hand small/medium format passive array cabinets for live audio rock gigs.

Can anyone suggest any models to look for that you guys think sounds great to set a sound equipment with my subwoofers???


"live audio rock gigs" is also an extremely generic requirement.  You need to tell us how many of these subwoofer cabinets you have, post any measurements you have taken of their performance (vitally important for matching tops) and exactly what type of gigs you want to support.


Requirements should include hard data:


1 - SPL requirement with bandwidth and distance from source qualifiers
2 - Size of rooms
3 - Occupants of rooms
4 - Stage level wash to be contended with
5 - Materials used in construction of room
6 - Style (seated, open room, dance area, mosh pit etc.)
7 - Available mains power
8 - Logistic requirements
9 - Deployment (ground stack, flown, flown from venue flypoints, lifts)





Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 23, 2017, 05:27:06 am
Hello, thank you for all your suggestions. Im gonna try to show all the info you ask me for.

I have 2 subs 2x18 jbl custom, loaded with void v18-1000.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/bto/CSR82L.pdf

We put up a 5-8 rock concerts a year at an open air venue for like 200-500 people. People stand up not seated.
I have a lab G. fp6000q power amp just for the new equipment. Subs has their own power amp.
The cabinets most of the times  wont go flown, they will be stacked at both sides of stage. provably on top of their flightcase.


Our budget could be something between 5.000-8.000 /$.
We do prefer to buy second hand.

Well, i tried to detail most of the info of what we have.

Ive seen lots of db tech dva T4 or T8 second hand at good prices, but would prefer wood cabinets in stead.

Any suggestions about it???










"live audio rock gigs" is also an extremely generic requirement.  You need to tell us how many of these subwoofer cabinets you have, post any measurements you have taken of their performance (vitally important for matching tops) and exactly what type of gigs you want to support.


Requirements should include hard data:


1 - SPL requirement with bandwidth and distance from source qualifiers
2 - Size of rooms
3 - Occupants of rooms
4 - Stage level wash to be contended with
5 - Materials used in construction of room
6 - Style (seated, open room, dance area, mosh pit etc.)
7 - Available mains power
8 - Logistic requirements
9 - Deployment (ground stack, flown, flown from venue flypoints, lifts)
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: MikeHarris on January 23, 2017, 06:22:08 am
Both the DVA T4 and T8 are powered.
The better 'tops' are usually bi-amped. Does the crossover you are using for subs have additional outputs ? For rock punch look at the Martin H3
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 23, 2017, 06:32:34 am
Im looking for buying a new croosover, i though on new  driverack pa, which could afford bi amp tops and out for subs.

Mike i wasnt looking for the Martin H3 kind of cabinets, i was thinking of some array stile cabinets, like Jbl VRX or others.

Any suggestions about it???

Thank you


Both the DVA T4 and T8 are powered.
The better 'tops' are usually bi-amped. Does the crossover you are using for subs have additional outputs ? For rock punch look at the Martin H3
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 23, 2017, 07:30:51 am

Mike i wasnt looking for the Martin H3 kind of cabinets, i was thinking of some array stile cabinets, like Jbl VRX or others.


Are you talking about line array cabinets?

Why do you want a line array?

WHat have you used in the past?

Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 23, 2017, 08:04:52 am
Turbosound TMS4


Are you talking about line array cabinets?

Why do you want a line array?

WHat have you used in the past?
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 23, 2017, 12:29:24 pm
Turbosound TMS4
I will ask again,, What are you looking for in an "array cabinet"?

Or what problem do you look to solve?
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 23, 2017, 12:37:40 pm

Ivan we had an old and heavy Turbosound TSM 4 and we look forward getting a new equipment.
We are keeping the JBL Subs, and we though of getting some small format cabinets we could stack and add to our JBL subs. Multiple speakers in a small format cabinet for a portable sound to do rock gigs sound.

I know theres a lot of parameters to check before advising a sound system set up, but we just wanted to hear some suggestions on wood cabinet brands to start checking it out.

The problem i want to solve is that our Turbosound cabinets are quite old and we wanted to replacethem for some modern equipment.




I will ask again,, What are you looking for in an "array cabinet"?

Or what problem do you look to solve?
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 23, 2017, 07:43:45 pm
Ivan we had an old and heavy Turbosound TSM 4 and we look forward getting a new equipment.
We are keeping the JBL Subs, and we though of getting some small format cabinets we could stack and add to our JBL subs. Multiple speakers in a small format cabinet for a portable sound to do rock gigs sound.

I know theres a lot of parameters to check before advising a sound system set up, but we just wanted to hear some suggestions on wood cabinet brands to start checking it out.

The problem i want to solve is that our Turbosound cabinets are quite old and we wanted to replacethem for some modern equipment.
If you are looking to stack them on your subs, you need to consider how to the the HF devices above the audience heads.

If you are stacking small boxes, consider that the highs and mids will mostly be to low to decent coverage.

With only 1 sub per side, the full range cabinet to keep up with it would not have to be real strong.

I would get a single source cabinet (not a stack of cheap small boxes) and put it on a speaker stand.

That way you can get it above the peoples heads and it will sound better, and be easier to deal with (less setup, less cables) and so forth.
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 24, 2017, 04:44:36 pm
Ivan thank you but i already considered all those parameters, cabs will be high enough. Thank you for the suggestions , but we are looking for those kind of cabinets.

Anyone have suggestions on brands and models?


I also wonder why this post was moved to installed sound or contracting, because it is not any of them, its not an installed sound equipment and we are not  contracting..
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 24, 2017, 05:06:27 pm
So you really don't care how it sounds, you only care how it looks.  Is that what you are really saying Sam?  Ivan and other forum members are trying to make certain that the system sounds good and works in your venue, but your focus is only about how it looks.
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 05:14:19 pm
Ivan thank you but i already considered all those parameters, cabs will be high enough. Thank you for the suggestions , but we are looking for those kind of cabinets.

Anyone have suggestions on brands and models?



How do you know they will be high enough?  You don't even know what model speaker you are looking at?

Maybe I am missing something???????????
Title: Moving topics
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 24, 2017, 06:08:04 pm
I also wonder why this post was moved to installed sound or contracting, because it is not any of them, its not an installed sound equipment and we are not  contracting..

As far as I can tell looking at the logs, this topic has always been in this forum. Only 2 topics have been moved since January 19th, and neither of them were this one.

What forum did you mean to post in?

Mac
Title: Sound system.
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 24, 2017, 06:37:21 pm
Hello folks, i been trying to state my question since the first post. I tried to answer all the questions you guys made.
I said many times that i already considered many things you were suggestion , and the only point i got to was that i want a "GOOD LOOKING" sound equipment...

Ivan i said i considered that point many times.Your one single source cabinet, i guess could be a suggestion like Martin H3 , which is almost 80 kg per cabinet. Im sure its a pretty good cabinet for rock concerts, but would take us to carry at least 6 of them every weekend, plus subs, to get at least 7.000/8.000watts output (im simplifying the answere, i wont get into sound preasure levels) which is quite heavy and also hard to lift over the people heads i guess...  other option you meant was to set a single source cabinet on a speaker stand, but i dont think anyone would do a 500 people gig with such an equipment... i guess it would take 5 minutes to blow out the speakers...

Im pretty sure you guys are all right, but it wasnt the point i was trying to ask, so thank you everyone for all the suggestions but i stop trying to go with this issue farder...

Ill try to state my point clearer next time . Sorry about everyhting...










As far as I can tell looking at the logs, this topic has always been in this forum. Only 2 topics have been moved since January 19th, and neither of them were this one.

What forum did you mean to post in?

Mac
Title: Re: Sound system.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 07:48:22 pm

Ivan i said i considered that point many times.Your one single source cabinet, i guess could be a suggestion like Martin H3 , which is almost 80 kg per cabinet. Im sure its a pretty good cabinet for rock concerts, but would take us to carry at least 6 of them every weekend, plus subs, to get at least 7.000/8.000watts output (im simplifying the answere, i wont get into sound preasure levels) which is quite heavy and also hard to lift over the people heads i guess...  other option you meant was to set a single source cabinet on a speaker stand, but i dont think anyone would do a 500 people gig with such an equipment... i guess it would take 5 minutes to blow out the speakers...

.
Am I the only one who is really confused by this?

With only 1 sub per side, it would not take a very strong top to keep up.

There are speakers you can put on a stick and do a 500 person rock show.  But you are going to need a good many more subs.
Title: Re: Sound system.
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on January 24, 2017, 08:02:07 pm
other option you meant was to set a single source cabinet on a speaker stand, but i dont think anyone would do a 500 people gig with such an equipment... i guess it would take 5 minutes to blow out the speakers...

Funny, I run 500-1000 on a weekly basis with speakers on sticks, no problems hitting 107db when I want to... I haven't blown a driver in years... They are only about 30kg too.

Am I the only one who is really confused by this?

With only 1 sub per side, it would not take a very strong top to keep up.

There are speakers you can put on a stick and do a 500 person rock show.  But you are going to need a good many more subs.
He wants a line array because they are "better".
Title: Re: Sound system.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 08:18:02 pm
Funny, I run 500-1000 on a weekly basis with speakers on sticks, no problems hitting 107db when I want to... I haven't blown a driver in years... They are only about 30kg too.
He wants a line array because they are "better".
He never said a line array-just an "array"

I asked several times to see what type of "array" he was asking about.

BTW 107dB what?  A or C? Fast or slow?

Without the particulars it is like saying that apples cost 49 money.

What kind of money? Dollars? Pecos? other?

Just being picky-because it matters
Title: Re: Sound system.
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on January 24, 2017, 08:25:45 pm


Just being picky-because it matters
I wouldn't have it any other way Ivan...  ;)
DBA
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 24, 2017, 11:04:22 pm
I am guessing that English is not Sam's primary language, and that may be part of our difficulty in understanding his desires.  He said he wanted cabinets that he could set on top of their packing cases, and then arrays, and then mentioned JBL VRX which would not set on top of packing cases very well at all!  I would also wonder why he put "void 1000" speakers in a cabinet designed for a specific JBL model.  Want to bet it wasn't a JBL cabinet at all?

Forum members tried to help, but some people are only looking for confirmation for what they have already decided to do!  I wish him well, but would not expect a very good audible outcome.  Hope it looks good!
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 25, 2017, 12:27:17 am
I have 2x18JBL custom subwoofers (2000watts each). Also lab grupen amplification, and im looking to buying new/second hand small/medium format passive array cabinets for live audio rock gigs.

Can anyone suggest any models to look for that you guys think sounds great to set a sound equipment with my subwoofers???

Here's one to consider...
http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/noesis-3tx/

Horizontally array-able...check.
Passive...check.
Light...check.
Good looking...check (new model with the grill anyway.)
Loud...check.
Sounds good....check check.

You would need more than one double 18" sub per side to keep up though.

John R.
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on January 25, 2017, 12:20:48 pm
Hey, Don is probably right about the English. Sorry if i made any mistakes trying to explain in English.

Ok, since everyone see a better option a one single source cabinet to work with my subwoofers, im open to hear suggestions on what would could sound good with it.

I have a 3 way stereo DBX drive Pa crossover.





Here's one to consider...
http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/noesis-3tx/

Horizontally array-able...check.
Passive...check.
Light...check.
Good looking...check (new model with the grill anyway.)
Loud...check.
Sounds good....check check.

You would need more than one double 18" sub per side to keep up though.

John R.
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 25, 2017, 05:41:49 pm
Sam, I hope I didn't insult you, and I truly hope you get a good sounding system.  The forum members really care about audio quality and have a lot of experience.  But, we don't agree on everything and have our own likes and dislikes.  Some times we get a little snobbish if we think our best advise is being ignored.

If you are really wanting a stackable line array cabinet, I just came upon the DAS Artec 320 passive 2 X 10" line line array box.  It is really an install box, but handles and a speakon connector could be easily added.  It is flyable, but as I said it isn't supposed to be a touring box.  It looks like it would be easy to stack, but find a way to do it safely.

I have not heard this cabinet, but I have heard a lot of other DAS line array boxes and have usually liked what I heard.  The company is very international, so I suspect it would be available wherever you reside.  I don't know the cost.

In my opinion, line array boxes always sound better when there are a lot of them (6 or more per array) and they are flown where the lowest boxes are way above the heads of the audience.  Again just a personal opinion.  I'm certain there may be other small wood passive line array cabs, but these are from a company known for line array systems.

Again, good luck with your quest.
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Lance Hallmark on February 27, 2017, 02:24:42 pm
Hey, Don is probably right about the English. Sorry if i made any mistakes trying to explain in English.

Ok, since everyone see a better option a one single source cabinet to work with my subwoofers, im open to hear suggestions on what would could sound good with it.

I have a 3 way stereo DBX drive Pa crossover.

I will also second the JTR Noesis 3TX. It's a 3 way cabinet that a pair can easily handle rock band levels for 4-500 people, in my opinion. As others have said, you will probably want at least 4 of the sub cabinets you have to keep up with the tops.
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 27, 2017, 10:34:54 pm
Hi Sam-

We have 32 DB Technologies T4.  We've been happy with them even if they are plastic.  Not ideal but for the weight/price/output/client acceptance these were a good investment for us that paid off quickly.  I think we've sent just one back for warranty service.  Disclaimer:  we're also DB Tech dealers, and also have a whole bunch of JBL VerTec 4889/4880/4887 in our shop as well.

If you do not need a vertical array for rider/client acceptance I really think you would be hard pressed to beat the JBL SRX835p for tops.  About US$1500 each here in the States but no idea what they sell for elsewhere.  If you are in the USA I'd also suggest auditioning the JTR box that Lance and John R. recommend.  I've not heard that model but everything else I've heard from JTR has made me smile.  Not the cheapest, not the most expensive, but representing performance above what the price might suggest.  Plus Jeff is great at answering questions from prospective owners and he can often put a prospect in touch with a near-by JTR owner.

What kind of rock bands are you working with?  What are the expectations of the promoter, the acts and the audience?  How large a physical area (Sq M/Sq Ft) must be covered?
Title: Re: Small/medium wood array cabinets
Post by: Sam Higuera on March 01, 2017, 02:20:22 pm
Hey LAnce , i never heard of those JTR speakers, they seems really powerfull. I read about them on internet, they seem pretty good.A quite good choice.

Tim the JBL is also a good choice.We do rock /rocknroll local bands on northrn Spain.The physical area could be around 250/300 square meters.



I will also second the JTR Noesis 3TX. It's a 3 way cabinet that a pair can easily handle rock band levels for 4-500 people, in my opinion. As others have said, you will probably want at least 4 of the sub cabinets you have to keep up with the tops.