ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Bob Leonard on June 12, 2014, 06:51:41 PM

Title: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 12, 2014, 06:51:41 PM
Sorry Ned, but Steve's got you with this one. I voiced this Champ for a 12" speaker and man does it sound good. The numbers line up just like they should (4-6-6) and an amazing bit of dirt starts to creep in about 5. Pushed to 6 and it's the amp used for most of the Stones recordings. But clean is where it counts and this amp has that in spades. I won't get into the full detail, you guys know what I do, but there's a picture below with some of the magic exposed.
 
Steve, grab some Kleenex before you start to work this amp. It's gonna make you cry.
 
 
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Ned Ward on June 12, 2014, 07:23:19 PM
Bob - that is quite the shot across the bow! Love the workmanship (of course), and love that it's been converted into a head - I'm looking for a misused Deluxe Reverb or Princeton to do the same to - and I know exactly who I'll talk to once I get it...

I dragged my Princeton Reverb (with DR OT) to practice the other day, and it reminded me how much I love those 6V6 amps when they're pushed. I'll be using my Tremolux this Thursday for a show, and lending out the Bandmaster to our other guitar player, and the excellent Showman has been pulling bass amp duty through an Ampeg SVT 2x10. Our bass player loves the sound; so do we.

thanks for posting, and as Yogi Berra used to say, "It aint over 'til it's over."
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 12, 2014, 08:59:07 PM
I love Deluxe Reverbs. There's a very special speaker I use on those and I'll not say what it is unless I do the rebuild and you've been sworn to secrecy. The best bet for a Deluxe is a silver face from 70-73/74. The price is always reasonable and in a couple of days with minimum parts I can have them sounding as good or better than any 64-66 you'll find. My own private reserve is a modified 72. I don't think I've ever played a gig and not been asked where I found it, what's in it, etc.. I usually tell the people, "in a music store, don't know - stock."

I'll be running Steve's amp for about a week before I send it back. Wish it had reverb though. When I received this amp it didn't work. Replaced tubes, caps, tube sockets, a couple of blown resistors, output cable for speaker, speaker jack, more caps.

By the way Ned. It has become impossible to purchase replacement face plates for Fender amps. Fender has clamped down and the market has dried up. But, I have a source in Europe if you need one.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Kemper Watson on June 12, 2014, 10:07:58 PM
Anyone want a 65 Twin for $1500..
 If this violates policy, move it to the Marketplace. It's not mine, just thought these guys would be a more target audience..LOL
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Deryl Voutila on June 12, 2014, 11:05:38 PM
I love Deluxe Reverbs. There's a very special speaker I use on those and I'll not say what it is unless I do the rebuild and you've been sworn to secrecy. The best bet for a Deluxe is a silver face from 70-73/74. The price is always reasonable and in a couple of days with minimum parts I can have them sounding as good or better than any 64-66 you'll find. My own private reserve is a modified 72. I don't think I've ever played a gig and not been asked where I found it, what's in it, etc.. I usually tell the people, "in a music store, don't know - stock."

Better than my '66, Bob? ;) 
I will attest to the speaker choice, without divulging any trade secrets.  I will say it has changed my speaker paradigm for some other amps I own.

Regards,
Deryl Voutila
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 13, 2014, 02:51:23 AM
That looks great.  It would be perfect for me.  I don't use reverb (slapback tap delay instead) and I do occasionally use tremolo.

My current gigging amplifier is a WEM Dominator (17 watt valve - 2 x EL84).

A small amp head like that would be great for trying out different speakers.


Steve.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 13, 2014, 06:40:45 AM
Better than my '66, Bob? ;) 
I will attest to the speaker choice, without divulging any trade secrets.  I will say it has changed my speaker paradigm for some other amps I own.

Regards,
Deryl Voutila

Well, I got carried away there. How is your Deluxe running Deryl? And actually I think Ned is the only person I know that doesn't own one.
 
The speaker I'm talking about has never been mentioned and the cost is over $200. I can sometimes talk these folks into a lower price, so if you want the last bit of Deluxe magic let me know.
 
PS - It's not a Warehouse.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 13, 2014, 06:48:02 AM
Anyone want a 65 Twin for $1500..
 If this violates policy, move it to the Marketplace. It's not mine, just thought these guys would be a more target audience..LOL

Kemper,
The thing about Twin Reverbs is that they are very common, can be found for $5-800, and unless you're a collector owning a 66' is not an advantage. I have a pair, 72' and 74' that have been converted to AB763 specs, fully recapped, tone stack tuned, Celestion speakers, and soon to have new grill cloth and black faceplate. I'll sell one of them as is for $1000 and guarantee it sounds 100 times better than the 66'. That's $200 less than the current circuit board re-issue Fender make today.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Kemper Watson on June 15, 2014, 06:44:30 PM
Kemper,
The thing about Twin Reverbs is that they are very common, can be found for $5-800, and unless you're a collector owning a 66' is not an advantage. I have a pair, 72' and 74' that have been converted to AB763 specs, fully recapped, tone stack tuned, Celestion speakers, and soon to have new grill cloth and black faceplate. I'll sell one of them as is for $1000 and guarantee it sounds 100 times better than the 66'. That's $200 less than the current circuit board re-issue Fender make today.

I'll let the seller know. I had no idea of the value. It was strange. While I was reading your post, he text'ed me with the sale offer...Now I know
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Ned Ward on June 16, 2014, 05:06:37 PM
Bob - thanks for the date range to hone in on. Based on some of the great finds on Craiglist out here (Tremolux Cab for $100, etc.) a 70-74 SF DR could be in the cards if I can find at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 16, 2014, 08:02:49 PM
Ned,
The early 70's DR's are almost as much blackface as a 66' blackface. I even have a replacement control panel in stock if you want to change the "silver" look. I don't need to get crazy on the early 70's amps, and I never met one that didn't sound great when I was done.


Just an FYI, I have a fully restored Pro Reverb for sale @ $1100. Just sayin.....
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve Hurt on June 18, 2014, 09:08:33 AM
Sorry Ned, but Steve's got you with this one. I voiced this Champ for a 12" speaker and man does it sound good. The numbers line up just like they should (4-6-6) and an amazing bit of dirt starts to creep in about 5. Pushed to 6 and it's the amp used for most of the Stones recordings. But clean is where it counts and this amp has that in spades. I won't get into the full detail, you guys know what I do, but there's a picture below with some of the magic exposed.
 
Steve, grab some Kleenex before you start to work this amp. It's gonna make you cry.


If its half as good as the Pro Reverb or the Vibrolux Custom you did for me, it will be awesome.  Can't wait to play it!

fwiw, this is actually a Silverface Vibro Champ.  I read that the circuit was not changed when they changed the faceplate color and I like the look of blackface, so I bought a panel on eBay and put it on. 

I built the head cabinet from a piece of African mahogany salvaged from a table my mom and dad built together when they first got married.  ( It was an awful table, neither was a woodworker!, but the wood was beautiful and they built it together so it makes it special for me)

My band is moving to IEM, so I need good sound, not loud.  The plan is a small amp and a speaker in a box with a mic in it.  This is the amp.  I'll post once I've played it, but I'd bet a lot of money that I'm going to like what I hear! 
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve Hurt on June 18, 2014, 09:20:34 AM
Here's a better picture of the wood/cabinet

Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 18, 2014, 09:42:53 AM
When I got the amp there was little or no sound. Was it like that when you bought it??

The wiring color and type was a dead giveaway this was a 70's era amplifier. Note the white and green rubber covered wire vs. the cloth covered red, green and yellow used up until about 1968-69.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve Hurt on June 18, 2014, 10:19:40 AM
When I got the amp there was little or no sound. Was it like that when you bought it??

The wiring color and type was a dead giveaway this was a 70's era amplifier. Note the white and green rubber covered wire vs. the cloth covered red, green and yellow used up until about 1968-69.

I bought it from a guy on a facebook group.  It was sold as working, but it didn't really work.
Light came on but only a whisper came out of the speaker, even at full volume.
Tried all the spare tubes I have and none fixed it

I was going to have a local guy do the work, but when we decided to go IEM's, and I realized this amp was going to be what I use live, I asked for your help so the tone and reliability would be 12 on a scale of 1-10!
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 20, 2014, 12:28:17 AM
Thanks Bro.

I tried to get the amp out today but ran into some issues. It'll go out tomorrow or Saturday.

By the way, when the amp arrived the tubes had fallen out. I put new sockets and added retainer clips and it looks like you'll need a crowbar to get them out now.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve Hurt on June 20, 2014, 10:34:36 AM
Thanks Bro.

I tried to get the amp out today but ran into some issues. It'll go out tomorrow or Saturday.

By the way, when the amp arrived the tubes had fallen out. I put new sockets and added retainer clips and it looks like you'll need a crowbar to get them out now.


This is why it came to you.

I had noticed the loose tube sockets and forgot to mention them, but you saw them and took care of it.  No one else would have done that. 

It's worth the wait regardless of how long it takes (and the local guy would probably have taken longer anyway!)
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 20, 2014, 01:02:43 PM
Sorry for the wait Steve. It's been a health thing, but it looks like the docs finally have a handle on it.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 20, 2014, 01:07:40 PM
I have a Pro Reverb I'm going to put smaller transformers in. I'll let you know how that turns out. It's an early 70's Pro I've rebuilt, but this beast has the output of a Twin Reverb and at 2 1/2 it's louder than a Deluxe. The goal will be to reduce output with slightly decreased headroom. Maybe I can reduce the output, retain the tone, give it a middle control, and then end up with a 30-35 watt Twin Reverb.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve Hurt on June 20, 2014, 01:49:17 PM
I have a Pro Reverb I'm going to put smaller transformers in. I'll let you know how that turns out. It's an early 70's Pro I've rebuilt, but this beast has the output of a Twin Reverb and at 2 1/2 it's louder than a Deluxe. The goal will be to reduce output with slightly decreased headroom. Maybe I can reduce the output, retain the tone, give it a middle control, and then end up with a 30-35 watt Twin Reverb.

Sounds like you're describing a Vibrolux (w/2-12's instead of 2-10's) to me!
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 20, 2014, 10:21:07 PM
Maybe, we'll see. I might even try a pair of 6V6s in it.
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Steve Hurt on June 22, 2014, 01:23:21 AM
Maybe, we'll see. I might even try a pair of 6V6s in it.

Me and the wife went out to an open blues jam last night and they played so loud my Vibrolux wouldn't keep up!

If I go back to that one, I'm taking earplugs and my Pro Reverb (another "Fender by Leonard")
I'll teach them about clean and loud! 
I was starting thinking there was no room in town where I could open that amp up at!
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Geri O'Neil on June 22, 2014, 10:22:00 PM
Me and the wife went out to an open blues jam last night and they played so loud my Vibrolux wouldn't keep up!

If I go back to that one, I'm taking earplugs and my Pro Reverb (another "Fender by Leonard")
I'll teach them about clean and loud! 
I was starting thinking there was no room in town where I could open that amp up at!

Bob. do you rework any Ampeg tube stuff, such as old SVTs?

I have a friend with one that owes me a big favor and I could get this SVT rig for a song, and not a very good song at that...:o). While the cabinet is in good shape, the head doesn't sound right at all, compared to what I know about SVTs. I tried the cab with my EBS Fafner head and that sounds great! But I'd love to have a rockin' SVT rig.

BTW, I'm playing again, just being a shop rat at the job I've had for the last 21 years. No shows anymore. 

Thanx, Geri O
Title: Re: Steve Hurt fires latest shot at Ned Ward in the Fender wars.
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 22, 2014, 11:59:16 PM
Bob. do you rework any Ampeg tube stuff, such as old SVTs?

I have a friend with one that owes me a big favor and I could get this SVT rig for a song, and not a very good song at that...:o). While the cabinet is in good shape, the head doesn't sound right at all, compared to what I know about SVTs. I tried the cab with my EBS Fafner head and that sounds great! But I'd love to have a rockin' SVT rig.

BTW, I'm playing again, just being a shop rat at the job I've had for the last 21 years. No shows anymore. 

Thanx, Geri O

Gerry,

I can do an SVT head for you as long as it's a tube head and not the new transistorized cacadoodie. Send me a PM and I'll tell you how it works.

@Steve,

Take the Pro and kick their asses.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 26, 2014, 11:46:41 PM
No picture, but Brian Bolley just came by and picked up his Twin. I think he was satisfied but can't really tell. I played a couple of songs and all he would do is moan and make weird faces. The last I saw of him he was driving off into the night with an "evil" smile on his face.
 
All kidding aside, thank you Brian for the privilege of working on your amp. Drive safe.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: DavidTurner on June 27, 2014, 01:36:34 AM
Sorry to go off topic but: so Geri you won 't be at Silver Star Tuesday??!!! Damn!!!!
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on June 27, 2014, 10:53:00 AM
Since this is an amp thread…

I have my Princeton Reverb - 77 pull boost, so I added a Deluxe Reverb output transformer and cleaned up the wiring. Sounds great at low volumes with a Jensen reissue speaker, but above 4 that speaker just farts and turns to mush.

Cab is particle board with glued in/dadoed baffle, so adding a 12 isn't practical (I also have a matching closed 1x12 cab. Looking for a better 10" speaker that will give me sweet clean, but further on up the road crunch without farting out. So far on my list:

Weber AlNiCo 10A125 - have 2 of these in my Tremolux and I do like.
Warehouse Speakers G10C/S

Upper end
Warehouse Speakers G10A
Kendrick Blackframe 10

Any other thoughts? Looking to keep the Princeton chime which is why I'm not looking at more British-voiced speakers.

thanks!
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 27, 2014, 02:43:04 PM
Blackframe 10, or G10A in that order. If all else fails, me.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Brian Bolly on June 28, 2014, 02:54:33 PM
No picture, but Brian Bolley just came by and picked up his Twin. I think he was satisfied but can't really tell. I played a couple of songs and all he would do is moan and make weird faces. The last I saw of him he was driving off into the night with an "evil" smile on his face.
 
All kidding aside, thank you Brian for the privilege of working on your amp. Drive safe.

I'm not a guitarist, nor do I play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  But I did have an "Evil" Twin that was in need of some serious help, and the Good Dr Bob was able to bring the patient back to health.

I've had this Twin for the last 5+ years and although it had been to a local shop a couple times, it was never "right".  Part of that not-right-ness was the fact that it's a close brethren to "The Twin" amp (not a "real" twin, but not solid state), but apparently also not as despised as the red-knobbed "The Twin" either.  It's just simply labeled "Twin Amp" on the face.

There's little documentation about this guy except for the owner's manual, and apparently no schematics either.  From what Bob tells me it was a stop-gap model between years, but for me it was a serviceable backline amp, which is what I needed it to become again. 

Apparently I only travel to the Boston area when there's either A) 3 feet of snow; or B) It's near 90 and humid out, so Bob was kind enough to store the amp between my trips.  But the magic that he was able to re-inject into that amp for me is nothing short of astounding.  I've known the history of this particular amp for the last 10+ years, and I can say that it has never sounded this good, ever.

I finally made it home late last night (stupid NY/NJ weekend traffic) and the amp has safely returned to the shop, ready for it's next adventure.  I have a couple friends who are serious players who I'd like to put this amp in front of and surprise the hell out of them.  They played it in its former state with less than enthusiastic reviews, but I have no doubt will be more than happy to play it now.  And it's definitely a great backline piece once again.

Bob, thanks again (Hey, wanna work on an Eden WT800 head??) - good health and safe travels to you as well.


Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 29, 2014, 03:10:39 PM
Brian,
I hope we get to meet some time when we're able to sit and actually drink the beer I gave you. It's my pleasure to help in any way that I can, especially people who are as nice as you. Thank you again for the privilege of working on your amp, and the same goes to everyone who has done the same.
 
The Eden?? Ahhhhh..... No.
 
 
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on June 30, 2014, 02:17:24 PM
Blackframe 10, or G10A in that order. If all else fails, me.
Ha!


Thanks Bob - Always can count on you for sage advice. If I can find an old Jensen C10Q (pre 1968) either in good shape or get it reconed through Orange County Speakers, would that change your recommendation?
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 30, 2014, 02:30:40 PM
No. I have some CQ10's and they don't compare, not even close.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on June 30, 2014, 02:45:47 PM
good to know - was seeing some vintage Jensens and CTS on ebay and thought with a recone could keep the vintage vibe. Ordering the Blackframe this week.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Tim Padrick on July 01, 2014, 01:40:27 AM
Since this is an amp thread…

I have my Princeton Reverb - 77 pull boost, so I added a Deluxe Reverb output transformer and cleaned up the wiring. Sounds great at low volumes with a Jensen reissue speaker, but above 4 that speaker just farts and turns to mush.

Cab is particle board with glued in/dadoed baffle, so adding a 12 isn't practical (I also have a matching closed 1x12 cab. Looking for a better 10" speaker that will give me sweet clean, but further on up the road crunch without farting out. So far on my list:

Weber AlNiCo 10A125 - have 2 of these in my Tremolux and I do like.
Warehouse Speakers G10C/S

Upper end
Warehouse Speakers G10A
Kendrick Blackframe 10

Any other thoughts? Looking to keep the Princeton chime which is why I'm not looking at more British-voiced speakers.

thanks!

Change the output stage coupling caps from .1uf to .01uf and see if that helps.  Or change the first stage cathode bypass cap (maybe from 25uf to 2uf?). 
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 01, 2014, 05:29:09 AM
Remember that this is a Princeton Reverb, not a Princeton. The Princeton should stay clean up to about 7 on the volume dial. The Princeton Reverb on the other hand has an additional gain stage due to the reverb section and should stay clean to 4-5 on the volume dial.

Ned,

Stiff bottom is the goal here, so if the speaker we discussed doesn't make as much of an improvement as you think it should you can;

Replace the PS capacitors with 40mf capacitors, change the rectifier tube to a 5AR4 (if it will fit) or solid state replacement, change the PS transformer and swap it with a Deluxe or Bandmaster transformer. Constantly measure the plate voltage and if the plate voltage starts to approach 430v then STOP. Do not go over 430v with a 6V6.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 01, 2014, 10:41:07 AM
Thanks Bob. Speaker should be here by next week. In the meantime, will get the Jensen reissue out and on eBay to get a few bucks...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 04, 2014, 06:25:39 PM
Steve received his head yesterday. I wonder if he's plugged it in yet.

Steve, If you've powered on the amp I could use a report please, good or bad.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 04, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
i have a stage 185
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 05, 2014, 12:00:54 PM
Steve received his head yesterday. I wonder if he's plugged it in yet.

Steve, If you've powered on the amp I could use a report please, good or bad.

Having a crazy weekend!  Sound gig after gig after.... 
I did plug it in long enough to make sure it powers up
Have not had a chance to put it through it's paces
Will spend time with it tomorrow and Tuesday the band rehearses so I'll know the important stuff then (if it maintains headroom after heating up and being thrashed for an hour straight)

All that said, I know Bob's work.  I have no doubt what t will sound like.  Awesome.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 05, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
i have a stage 185

My deepest sympathies.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 05, 2014, 12:33:08 PM
My deepest sympathies.

Like the kid in high school Steve. "You guy's seen my new Pinto??"
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 05, 2014, 01:35:30 PM
Like the kid in high school Steve. "You guy's seen my new Pinto??"

Yeah, that question was asked of the other student who was driving an AMC Gremlin...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 05, 2014, 01:44:54 PM
Like the kid in high school Steve. "You guy's seen my new Pinto??"

Depends on the Pinto!

(image apparently got deleted from the place I stole it)
It was a supercharged V8 in a Tubbed out Pinto

Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Kemper Watson on July 05, 2014, 02:59:13 PM
Exactly..When I was in High School there were a few hot rodded with 351's in them.. And a few Vega 350's as well...LOL
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 05, 2014, 09:23:25 PM
Still a Pinto.

In 1969 I bought a Boss 302. One of my buddies was forced into a 6cyl 3 speed Comet by his Dad, and we had a field day. One day he put these decorative side pipes on the thing and swore that for some reason his Comet had just become the equal to my Boss. Still a Comet.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 06, 2014, 03:04:49 AM
Like the kid in high school Steve. "You guy's seen my new Pinto??"
now listen here Mr. , this aint no pinto and the 65 i have now has a 392W stroker ! BUT a friend is building a 72 pinto otnip with a 472 caddy engine and a fuel cell. btw my fender is 150 watts. and it aint no car fender either. <:O
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 06, 2014, 07:54:54 AM
Is that Hyde and Donna's father standing in front of what appears to be a car accident?
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Kemper Watson on July 06, 2014, 02:46:57 PM
Is that Hyde and Donna's father standing in front of what appears to be a car accident?

Now that's just plain cruel..
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 06, 2014, 04:41:15 PM
Is that Hyde and Donna's father standing in front of what appears to be a car accident?
WATT did you say ?! my mustang is a wreck ?! well yeah sort of. but it was real fast on the autocross course. its tuned up fine. i have to back in Hyding now.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 07, 2014, 08:23:30 AM
Just for Ned Ward and nothing but a Marshall, Marshall fans;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6meMBtTgKQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6meMBtTgKQ)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 07, 2014, 09:32:24 AM
Looks like a SF Showman on top of those Showman cabs - I think he used Fender a lot in the studio (Voodoo Chile, Wind Cries Mary) so great to hear him pushing those Fenders for all they're worth!
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 07, 2014, 09:35:31 AM
Thanks Bob. Speaker should be here by next week. In the meantime, will get the Jensen reissue out and on eBay to get a few bucks...

Bob - speaker arrived Thursday, so after pulling the chassis was able to swap out the Jensen for the Kendrick. The speaker lead was soldered on, so I brought it over to my normal guitar/amp shop for that, but also so he could hear it with the new speaker; he knows the sound of that Jensen and was blown away (as was I) by the Blackframe Kendrick. Totally worth it! Amp now sings at 7-8 and breaks up beautifully. Will be using it in practice later this week and can't wait!

Bob, thanks again for your invaluable advice.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 07, 2014, 12:42:29 PM
You're welcome Ned, and please keep me up to date. If we ever work together on Deluxe it's the 12" model that frosts the cake. I can build you a Deluxe that will leave you speechless for about a week.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 08, 2014, 12:48:56 PM
My buddy sent this to me in a text a couple of minutes ago and I thought it belonged here and that Bob would like it:

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/09/u2uhubyj.jpg)

Sent from my Moto X (XT1053) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 08, 2014, 11:12:56 PM
Outstanding Tommy, thanks.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 08, 2014, 11:25:53 PM
Put the Vibrochamp to work tonight.  Sounds like a much larger amp. 
Has an edge to the sound that didn't sag even after 3 hours of playing.
Almost a brown sound, but not really.  Pretty darn happy with it so far. 

Need to change out the speaker I'm using though.
The one in the cab is an 8 ohm Warehouse G12C/S
I'm sure the amp will prefer the 4 ohm Warehouse G12C

It's very quiet, no hum/hiss/buzz/rattle.
Great work Bob.  Thank you!

I will report back after spending more time and trying different speakers out.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 09, 2014, 01:46:20 AM
I will only post this link once because now we're getting a little too deep into the "secret sauce". PM Ned he'll give you his opinion on the one he just installed.

And thanks again Steve for the kind words.

http://www.kendrick-amplifiers.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KOS&Product_Code=KEN0603-Spk-12BL&Category_Code=12
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 09, 2014, 05:33:02 AM
My buddy sent this to me in a text a couple of minutes ago and I thought it belonged here and that Bob would like it:

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/09/u2uhubyj.jpg)

Sent from my Moto X (XT1053) using Tapatalk
i got your batman !
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 27, 2014, 11:04:33 PM
I have been using the Champ head for a couple weeks now at band practice.  Am currently running it through a Warehouse G12C in a wedge cabinet.  Have it mic'd with a Beyer M-88 pointed at the cone half way between the center and edge.  Running the amp about 5 on the volume, 8 on treble and 4-6 on bass.  (I play 99% of the time on the neck pickup so I run my amp fairly bright)  If I turn to 6 or 6.5, the amp will start to compress a bit and dynamics start to reduce.  5 seems to retain 90% of the amps headroom but heats the tubes enough for some tube bounce

My guitar tone in my ears is the best its been since we started w/IEM's, I'm super happy with it.   

I have been able to get other amps to sound decent with a little boost turned on, but the clean sound has been lifeless.  The champ sounds good clean with nothing pushing it.  And I think using a low wattage amp is allowing the speaker to not heat up and sag like it did after 3 hours of a 40 watt Vibrolux pounding it.

Excellent work Bob.  Excellent.  Thank you again!






Having a crazy weekend!  Sound gig after gig after.... 
I did plug it in long enough to make sure it powers up
Have not had a chance to put it through it's paces
Will spend time with it tomorrow and Tuesday the band rehearses so I'll know the important stuff then (if it maintains headroom after heating up and being thrashed for an hour straight)

All that said, I know Bob's work.  I have no doubt what t will sound like.  Awesome.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 28, 2014, 12:01:01 AM
I'm glad your happy Steve. Those are the results I was hoping for. Any questions, etc. call me.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Craig Leerman on July 28, 2014, 08:42:34 PM
Just a few reissues with no issues. 
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 29, 2014, 05:26:48 PM
Sorry I'm late - been hanging around that other joint.  I'll start with my current rig and go backwards >>>

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/SweetSpotwpedalsnFTTE_zps78f4ea51.jpg)

Stereo Allen Sweet Spots with JBL D120's and 6V6's

"Design is loosely based on the Fender Princeton Reverb™ but with many enhancements such as a standby switch, middle control, bright switch, choke filtered power supply, filter capacitor bank, fixed bias phase inverter, deeper vibrato, adjustable power tube bias and bias measurement jacks."
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 29, 2014, 05:40:23 PM
Sorry I'm late - been hanging around that other joint.  I'll start with my current rig and go backwards >>>

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/SweetSpotwpedalsnFTTE_zps78f4ea51.jpg)

Stereo Allen Sweet Spots with JBL D120's and 6V6's

"Design is loosely based on the Fender Princeton Reverb™ but with many enhancements such as a standby switch, middle control, bright switch, choke filtered power supply, filter capacitor bank, fixed bias phase inverter, deeper vibrato, adjustable power tube bias and bias measurement jacks."

Allen amps.  Nice.  I've got an Allen Accomplice.  The raw control is nice.  Good sounding amp
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve Hurt on July 29, 2014, 05:44:20 PM
Allen amps.  Nice.  I've got an Allen Accomplice.  The raw control is nice.  Good sounding amp

My Fenders (and a couple others)
This pic is a couple years old.
There are more now.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 29, 2014, 06:25:59 PM
Gene and Steve - nice amps!
Gene - lust after the Fulltone tape echo - nice!
How do you like the Plimsoul?
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 29, 2014, 11:31:27 PM
If I felt better I would have taken a picture of the current crowd. Looks like I'll have to fire the shot heard round the world. Your all spoiled. And Gene, for a guy with the bucks for a pair of sweet spots, would it hurt to buy a larger piece of plywood for your pedals you cheap prick.  ;D
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 30, 2014, 07:05:30 AM
Howdy Steve - howdy Ned - howdy Bob - it's been a while since I've been around here.  Yes the Fulltone tape echo is especially nice in stereo and that was my motivator to get the 2nd Sweet Spot.  I started with his Encore with upgrade output transformer and a JBL E120 but found that even with the master dialed back a little it was a little too big for some gigs and decided to try the Sweet Spot.  Then came the 2nd one and the hunt was on for another D series JBL.  Then I went even smaller and got the little barker >>>  http://www.allenamps.com/chihuahua.php  10 watts of fighting fury soon to be sporting a re-coned JBL E110

Here's a clip of the stereo Sweet Spots via some club promo lady who had a handy-cam of some sort >>>  http://youtu.be/cMibixvKREY  PA gear was the powered Mackie 8 channel head with 2 Ramsdell 4x10+1 columns and a single Ramsdell powered 15" sub driven off the monitor send for the kick/toms only (no monitors)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 30, 2014, 07:21:47 AM
If I felt better I would have taken a picture of the current crowd. Looks like I'll have to fire the shot heard round the world. Your all spoiled. And Gene, for a guy with the bucks for a pair of sweet spots, would it hurt to buy a larger piece of plywood for your pedals you cheap prick.  ;D

Yeah I know - just trying to keep it small enough to fit in an old tweed suitcase along with various wires and stuff.  Speaking of wires - has anyone else drunk the Evidence coolaid?  I did and made some of those weird little screw-on solder-less types for the pedals.  The Plimsol is pretty spiffy but it was just replaced by a new OCD and if I ever get the hang of cascading them they will probably be heard up near you.  My other odd duck is a Bixonic Expandora that is pretty radical and can be used sans pedal board when dragging things into a jam.  It has some interesting qualities that are hard to describe - just turn the amp down to 2 or 3 and it becomes the front end with a weird touch and tone thing. 

OK - going backwards - this is a BFDR with a Rodgers repro cab and JBL D120 Allen transformers 6L6's

(http://sarasotaslim.com/images/whitedeluxe.jpg)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 30, 2014, 11:54:14 AM
Gene - haven't tried the Evidence cables; have been using George L's for my pedalboard and my home studio for over 10 years with no issues on noise or shorts. For a non-soldering guy like me, the ability to cut and make custom-length cables is a godsend. If you add rubber feet to the pedalboard, you could even run the wires underneath the board for a cleaner look...

Haven't tried the Plimsoul but did try one of our ex-band members OCD; cascading them sounds like a plan!

My newest find was a Suhr Shiba Drive for when I need more gain than my Barber Direct Drive, which is fairly low gain, but sounds great. I find I'm using my Timmy less these days, and for lead the Keeley Fuzz Head is a lot of fun. I bought an MXR MicroFlanger, and while fun for Barracuda covers, the mix isn't adjustable; will ask our electronics friends at work to add a "mix" pot to the returns on my true bypass looper so I can vary it to taste.

If the Allens are the same size as their Fender counterparts, the Ultimate Support Genesis tilt-back stand fits in the back of them nicely. I keep one in the back of my Princeton Reverb for practice/smaller gigs.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 31, 2014, 12:08:23 PM
Gene - haven't tried the Evidence cables; have been using George L's for my pedalboard and my home studio for over 10 years with no issues on noise or shorts. For a non-soldering guy like me, the ability to cut and make custom-length cables is a godsend. If you add rubber feet to the pedalboard, you could even run the wires underneath the board for a cleaner look...

Haven't tried the Plimsoul but did try one of our ex-band members OCD; cascading them sounds like a plan!

My newest find was a Suhr Shiba Drive for when I need more gain than my Barber Direct Drive, which is fairly low gain, but sounds great. I find I'm using my Timmy less these days, and for lead the Keeley Fuzz Head is a lot of fun. I bought an MXR MicroFlanger, and while fun for Barracuda covers, the mix isn't adjustable; will ask our electronics friends at work to add a "mix" pot to the returns on my true bypass looper so I can vary it to taste.

If the Allens are the same size as their Fender counterparts, the Ultimate Support Genesis tilt-back stand fits in the back of them nicely. I keep one in the back of my Princeton Reverb for practice/smaller gigs.


The amp assault continues…


(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250014_zps813a0c81.jpg)

The one on the right got traded for the TTE (not the best trade I've ever done but sometimes when you want to rid your life of stuff you do weird things - at least I use the TTE all the time and it takes up a lot less room than a big amp in a road case)


The solderless Evidence are noticeably better than my old George L's.  Night and day difference.  My next Evidence adventure involves bravely cutting one of his pre-made high dollar coolaide types into 3 separate shorter wires to use between the pedal board > TTE > amp 1 > amp 2. 

As for the tilting of amps - I don't do it.  God gave me ears down by my ankles for a reason.  When using any amp with JBLs you're just gonna hurt yourself if you tilt it back.  I know this is a sound/PA forum but most of my work is done very old school with vocals and kick only coming from some kind of PA with the band using their ears to match what the area needs with stage volume and it seems to be getting lower and lower as the years pass.  All of my old Marshall stack and amp tilting friends have hearing issues and I'm convinced that having their guitars pinging them right in the head is the culprit. 
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 31, 2014, 12:09:58 PM
All of my old Marshall stack and amp tilting friends have hearing issues and I'm convinced that having their guitars pinging them right in the head is the culprit.

If that's the case, they should have TURNED THE SHIT DOWN.

(shouting CAPS for the hearing-impaired electric guitarists of the world - and that's most of them)

And while I'm at it... don't point your fucking amp right at me, at FOH, and then have your girlfriend/boyfriend/gaggle of sycophants tell me they can't hear you... because I took you out of the PA in this 300 seat room and am still trying to mix the vox up to your self-indulgent "artistry".

Okay, I feel better now.  Nurse, where are my meds?
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Chris Hindle on July 31, 2014, 12:35:43 PM

And while I'm at it... don't point your fucking amp right at me, at FOH, and then have your girlfriend/boyfriend/gaggle of sycophants tell he they can't hear you... because I took you out of the PA in this 300 seat room and am still trying to mix the vox up to your self-indulgent "artistry".

Okay, I feel better now.  Nurse, where are my meds?

Anything smaller than a shed or arena, I tell em "Point that shit at me, and 9/10 of the audience won't hear it". When GirlZilla comes up to bitch, she hears it plenty loud at FOH, just as I do. A lot of times, when the second set starts, the offending amp has been "re-directed", and I can get on with mixing for the audience, not mixing around a guitar.
(Neil, you listening ? No, I thought not.)

Tim, any spare meds? Mine are just about gone....
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 31, 2014, 01:48:32 PM
The amp assault continues…


(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250014_zps813a0c81.jpg)

The one on the right got traded for the TTE (not the best trade I've ever done but sometimes when you want to rid your life of stuff you do weird things - at least I use the TTE all the time and it takes up a lot less room than a big amp in a road case)


The solderless Evidence are noticeably better than my old George L's.  Night and day difference.  My next Evidence adventure involves bravely cutting one of his pre-made high dollar coolaide types into 3 separate shorter wires to use between the pedal board > TTE > amp 1 > amp 2. 

As for the tilting of amps - I don't do it.  God gave me ears down by my ankles for a reason.  When using any amp with JBLs you're just gonna hurt yourself if you tilt it back.  I know this is a sound/PA forum but most of my work is done very old school with vocals and kick only coming from some kind of PA with the band using their ears to match what the area needs with stage volume and it seems to be getting lower and lower as the years pass.  All of my old Marshall stack and amp tilting friends have hearing issues and I'm convinced that having their guitars pinging them right in the head is the culprit.


Interesting. I find that by having my amps tilted back, i turn the volume up less and can hear myself better. Tiltback legs on the non-Princetons, the stand for the others. We bought our other guitar player the Ultimate amp stand that lifts it up and tilts it, and his stage volume has noticeably decreased but he can hear himself better - makes for a better overall mix. My Tremolux rarely hits 4 for practice and shows and I can hear it fine...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 31, 2014, 02:05:33 PM
If that's the case, they should have TURNED THE SHIT DOWN.

(shouting CAPS for the hearing-impaired electric guitarists of the world - and that's most of them)

And while I'm at it... don't point your fucking amp right at me, at FOH, and then have your girlfriend/boyfriend/gaggle of sycophants tell me they can't hear you... because I took you out of the PA in this 300 seat room and am still trying to mix the vox up to your self-indulgent "artistry".

Okay, I feel better now.  Nurse, where are my meds?

What?  No comment on my high dollar Evidence coolaide cables?

Yeah you're right - they should have turned down.  Maybe they were all trying to hear themselves over the thundering kick drum and nothing else mix that all the grumpy old sound dudes gave them?!   ;)  Lucky for me we never really played at that insane rock level although I've endured many an insult just for owning a guitar by people who have never even seen me play.  The majority of the gigs I do now are smaller and we rarely have to mic guitars.. and on that note > Have you ever noticed the crazy PA on a stick bands that think they need to mic everything in a small room even though the poor little fuzzy cabs are farting and all that stuff has completely buried the vocals??? 

Pass the meds please...

Here's a clip from a gig we did earlier this year that we miked everything - not bad for a mix while you play from stage then going wireless to the video folks.

http://youtu.be/vE1kd18rlto (http://youtu.be/vE1kd18rlto)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 31, 2014, 02:32:18 PM
Someday Slim, you and I will play together.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 31, 2014, 02:38:31 PM

Interesting. I find that by having my amps tilted back, i turn the volume up less and can hear myself better. Tiltback legs on the non-Princetons, the stand for the others. We bought our other guitar player the Ultimate amp stand that lifts it up and tilts it, and his stage volume has noticeably decreased but he can hear himself better - makes for a better overall mix. My Tremolux rarely hits 4 for practice and shows and I can hear it fine...

Yeah a lot of people do like to tilt.  My amp aiming habits are old school and while wearing a sound dude hat it's always fun to slam the old rockers that play too loud but on a serious note - have you been a life long tilter and how are your ears??
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 31, 2014, 03:26:21 PM
What?  No comment on my high dollar Evidence coolaide cables?

Yeah you're right - they should have turned down.  Maybe they were all trying to hear themselves over the thundering kick drum and nothing else mix that all the grumpy old sound dudes gave them?!   ;)  Lucky for me we never really played at that insane rock level although I've endured many an insult just for owning a guitar by people who have never even seen me play.  The majority of the gigs I do now are smaller and we rarely have to mic guitars.. and on that note > Have you ever noticed the crazy PA on a stick bands that think they need to mic everything in a small room even though the poor little fuzzy cabs are farting and all that stuff has completely buried the vocals??? 

Pass the meds please...

Here's a clip from a gig we did earlier this year that we miked everything - not bad for a mix while you play from stage then going wireless to the video folks.

http://youtu.be/vE1kd18rlto (http://youtu.be/vE1kd18rlto)

Never heard of "Evidence", so no opinion, but if they make/drink/serve coolaide, I want to watch :)

And yes, I've sat through shows with lots of inappropriate things stuffed into an undersized PA.  Those guys deserve almost as much grief as razor-toned, set-to-stun guitarists.  The reason for the razor tone is that the guitarist who doesn't hear the center of the speaker misses all the HF that is BEAMING past his ankles or calves.  You get to hear what you want, the audience gets to hear it the way it sounds to the rest of the world.

And the drummer or bass player?  Probably trying to keep up with the other guy, and when he does the "other guy" buys a new amp, snare drum and cymbals or whatever, to get back to being the loudest thing on stage (for whatever reasons).  Amplitude war resulting from a failure to understand the meaning of the word "ensemble".

And uh, Gene, you know we're not supposed to trade meds here in the home....  8)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 31, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
Someday Slim, you and I will play together.

Keep me in the loop.  I wanna be there.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on July 31, 2014, 04:23:51 PM
Yeah a lot of people do like to tilt.  My amp aiming habits are old school and while wearing a sound dude hat it's always fun to slam the old rockers that play too loud but on a serious note - have you been a life long tilter and how are your ears??
Sorry I didn't mention the cables - I still have so many feet of George L's from buying a whole spool I'm invested for a while… but may have to check them out.


I'm only 47, playing for 35 years and have only been tilting amps for the past 7 years. My hearing isn't great (a lot of years playing/recording through headphones in a home studio at loud levels) but I did find that my stage volume decreased when I tilted the amps up and I was able to hear them better. This was also appreciated by the rest of the band - with the lower volume they can have a better monitor mix that's not fighting over the guitar amps even with them raised and/or tilted - works great when you don't have a lot of room on stage.


When I had my Bandmaster 2x12 combo made several years ago, I specifically got the Fender tilt-back legs to give me that option as well, and glad that I did. I know that in our practice room (20x20), tilt backs and stands have helped us lower the volume level and still be heard (no amps micd, only keys and vocals through PA).


May be worth trying.


FYI - you guys sound great on the Youtube video! Like Dick Rees, I'd want to be at that Gene/Bob show - I'll shlep gear!
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on July 31, 2014, 04:51:51 PM
1 more salvo of Fenders and a friend in the never ending war >>>

(((there's an echo in here)))
(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250015_zpsb3e82cc5.jpg)

a couple of old friends…

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/FenderampGibsontweeds_zps8094c7ad.jpg)

1957? Gibson Les Paul GA40 6V6's maybe 15 or 20 watts??
(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250004_zps31c70218.jpg)

Not exactly the right speaker but it's not bad.  Wish I had not tossed the original like young dummies do.  The original Jensen is the only one I saw with a phenolic dust cap and it was the bomb!

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250005_zps681cdbee.jpg)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 01, 2014, 12:16:25 AM
You'll pay for this.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on August 01, 2014, 07:55:25 AM
we are at number 9
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on August 01, 2014, 10:35:48 AM
You'll pay for this.

OK - no fooling around now - it's time to drop the heavy homemade bombs...

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250011_zps1d108e2e.jpg)

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/P8250010_zps282a2bd5.jpg)

take that!   :o
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on August 01, 2014, 10:50:42 AM
and now for weapon so dangerous and evil - it's never been used - it serves only as a deterrent

with 2 Altec 417 alnico's on top and coffee can 2 SRO's on the bottom it could probably go to 11

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/IMG_0249_zps40951952.jpg)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on August 08, 2014, 10:45:58 AM
Gene - very nice!


Here's my Bogen Challenger in action while the Tremolux is getting retubed...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 08, 2014, 06:47:11 PM
Ned,
I need to teach you how to do the simple things yourself. Nice Bogen by the way.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on August 08, 2014, 08:13:50 PM
Thanks Bob - Agree I should learn to bias the amp myself, but when it comes to me and Mr. Sparky, I'm a chickenshit.... No multimeter, and with the kids not a lot of time. This is one of the things I miss from the east coast - a proper basement!
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 09, 2014, 01:48:14 PM
and now for weapon so dangerous and evil - it's never been used - it serves only as a deterrent

with 2 Altec 417 alnico's on top and coffee can 2 SRO's on the bottom it could probably go to 11

(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q372/GeneHardage/GEETARZ/IMG_0249_zps40951952.jpg)

Hey Gene,

I'll trade you this nice minty never been re-coned D120F for that pair of SRO's.
 
 
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Tim Padrick on August 10, 2014, 02:13:17 AM
As for the tilting of amps - I don't do it.  God gave me ears down by my ankles for a reason.  When using any amp with JBLs you're just gonna hurt yourself if you tilt it back.

If you aren't hurting yourself, you are hurting some of the crowd ;-(  Please point 'em where they don't hurt anyone.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on August 11, 2014, 12:13:57 PM
Hey Gene,

I'll trade you this nice minty never been re-coned D120F for that pair of SRO's.

There was a time when I was probably crazy enough to do that but I've got D's or E's for all my important amps right now so no need.  Besides - I might actually get a chance to use this beast if I keep doing the occasional gig for the Michael Allman Band.  I prefer my little 20-25 watt Allen's to the bigger ones now but Murphy bit me several times on this last trip.  Long narrow steep stairs for load in of everything including B3 & Leslie - check - lucky for us they had a crappy barely working underpowered crackling carpet covered improperly deployed PA run by a deaf but friendly sound dude - check - next gig was much better in the PA department but the room acoustics were brutal on stage - check - then my amp developed a crackle halfway through the night - check - Murphy was on his job.

(I think I found the crackle - noisy #1 tube and or socket - sprayed socket and replaced tube and it seems fine now)

Next up - my first Casino gig.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on August 11, 2014, 12:44:48 PM
Gene - while I'd never ever suggest a modeling amp over the real tube deal, our keyboard player has a Hammond B3 and Leslie at home, but he gigs with a Roland VK8-M and likes the sound as do we. Sounds very good indeed and with a Ernie Ball volume pedal and all his cables fits in a suitcase.

Our backs thank him for his decision. It's not the same as a Hammond, but in the right hands the Roland sounds great. Waving your hand over the D-Beam for the Leslie speed control is also fun.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve M Smith on August 11, 2014, 12:57:35 PM
while I'd never ever suggest a modeling amp over the real tube deal

Despite owning a nice vintage WEM valve (tube) amp and being a big fan of valves who also builds valve audio equipment, for the last ten years I have been using a Line 6 Flextone modelling amplifier.

Whilst it might not do to well in a head to head comparison with the real thing, it is actually very good. 

I also like the fact that it has a tape echo emulation and tremolo (which are all the effects I use) so I can use the guitar connected straight to the amp.  I hate having effects boxes on the floor so this is perfect for me.


Steve.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on August 11, 2014, 02:30:07 PM
Gene - while I'd never ever suggest a modeling amp over the real tube deal, our keyboard player has a Hammond B3 and Leslie at home, but he gigs with a Roland VK8-M and likes the sound as do we. Sounds very good indeed and with a Ernie Ball volume pedal and all his cables fits in a suitcase.

Our backs thank him for his decision. It's not the same as a Hammond, but in the right hands the Roland sounds great. Waving your hand over the D-Beam for the Leslie speed control is also fun.

I agree - I own a Hammond XK2 and Leslie for my gigs if a player doesn't have the right rig or for the occasional backline/PS gig but "Torpedo" works for one of the premier Hammond refurbisher companies right here in the burg - Keyboard Specialties - http://www.b-3.com/   and he never leaves home without his road worn B3 and 2 Leslies.  The Michael Allman Band carries on the tradition with the old school gear on stage.  (Gregg Allman's son)  I on the other hand will gig with a slab keyboard in a wedge if that's what they wanna play.  ( 2 different bands)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on August 11, 2014, 04:03:20 PM
Got it. Last thing you need is having your keyboard player stoned to death for heresy...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 11, 2014, 05:34:40 PM
I have to agree with Ned about the Roland B3 sounds, but nothing sounds like a B3 and a pair of Leslie's. Nothing.
 
 
Correction: B3
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on August 12, 2014, 05:44:42 AM
i'll just slip this right in and knock them old rusty fenders out to pasture.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 12, 2014, 07:25:05 AM
With what??
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve M Smith on August 12, 2014, 07:51:05 AM
With whatever is behind that thing!


Steve.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on August 12, 2014, 01:59:45 PM
I have to agree with Ned about the Roland B3 sounds, but nothing sounds like a B2 and a pair of Leslie's. Nothing.
Agree.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on August 12, 2014, 08:05:05 PM
i'll just slip this right in and knock them old rusty fenders out to pasture.

Time to call on some friends for reinforcements…

http://ampwares.com/amplifiers/fender-super-twin/

(http://ampwares.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Supertwin_Front.jpg)

don't forget the EVM's
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on August 12, 2014, 08:12:07 PM
Nothing like SIX 6L6 power tubes to warm up the place… how does it sound compare to a regular Twin, besides even louder? Those casters don't have much of a chance on a 95lb. amp if you hit a guitar cord on the floor...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Gene Hardage on August 12, 2014, 09:06:53 PM
Nothing like SIX 6L6 power tubes to warm up the place… how does it sound compare to a regular Twin, besides even louder? Those casters don't have much of a chance on a 95lb. amp if you hit a guitar cord on the floor...

I've only seen one and it was owned by a fellow who had come down from Chicago where the blues bands play LOUD.  He said he was playing with Albert Collins who used a Quad Reverb with 4 JBL D120's.  His Super Twin was loaded with EVM's and probably weighed more than the stock 95 lbs.  NO I didn't like the sound of it but this is WAR so we have to defend our Fender turf! 
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on August 12, 2014, 10:12:01 PM
Time to call on some friends for reinforcements…

http://ampwares.com/amplifiers/fender-super-twin/

(http://ampwares.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Supertwin_Front.jpg)

don't forget the EVM's
it wont hep any ! my VK-100 has "4" Ruby 6L6 el tuberderos. the speaker cabinet is a B52 4 by 12 ! ha !
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 13, 2014, 12:49:51 AM
I've only seen one and it was owned by a fellow who had come down from Chicago where the blues bands play LOUD.  He said he was playing with Albert Collins who used a Quad Reverb with 4 JBL D120's.  His Super Twin was loaded with EVM's and probably weighed more than the stock 95 lbs.  NO I didn't like the sound of it but this is WAR so we have to defend our Fender turf! 

All those big watt amps were usually Diaz mods. The transformers and circuits were all jacked for output and the problem was although they got loud, to say the least, they all sounded the same, sterile. If you ever get the chance try a quad reverb. 135 watts of clean that will make your ears bleed. Can't use it anywhere though, just too damned loud. And the super twin? Only sold for a year so that tells you most of the story.

Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Geri O'Neil on August 16, 2014, 04:07:39 PM
Sorry to go off topic but: so Geri you won 't be at Silver Star Tuesday??!!! Damn!!!!

Hey, Dave, I'll PM you and explain when I get this bass put back together. I'm replacing a preamp in a Precision and the ol' eyes needed a break, so I made quick jaunt through here and saw this.

More later. Everyone said you guys rocked the house in epic fashion that night.

Geri O
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Dave Scarlett on August 27, 2014, 02:49:32 PM
Come on now, somebody buy this!

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/msg/4581166252.html

FENDER BASEMAN 1962 AMP W/BOTTOM 6G6-B According to the transformer # dating from Fender's website, This is a late 1961 transformer which means the amp was probably made in mid 1962.
 Tolex and Grills have been replaced. Amp serviced to specs(cap job etc...) with few hours play time. 2-16ohm (each) Celestion Alnico Blues put in new maybe 10 years ago(light use) wired for 8ohms (head is 4ohms) and ran 2-8ohm cabinets in the past. Open back added for sound but original back included with screws. $1350



Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve M Smith on August 27, 2014, 03:45:58 PM
Come on now, somebody buy this!

I would love to - unfortunately, these things cost money.

This is the model Brian Setzer uses. Just need to add a Roland RE-201 to it. I already have the Gretsch!


Steve.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 28, 2014, 11:17:37 AM
Here's an FYI for all of my fans. I have finished restoring pair of Princeton Reverbs, a Pro Reverb I may keep, a Deluxe Reverb, and a Twin Reverb. Two (2) of these amps exhibited motor boating, one a loud crackling sound, and another just blew fuses. Every one of these initial problems was traced to a defective JJ tube. The motor boating was traced to a defective 12AX7, the fuse blowing traced to a defective rectifier (which was new), the crackling traced to crap in an output tube (6V6), all JJ. This is the reason I don't use JJ tubes, and won't use JJ tubes. I have been using EH for their 6V6 which are very musical, lots of chime, very durable. BIAS to about 28ma and check for blocking. For 6L6 I prefer to use Sylvania or RCA (bucks), however, Groove tubes GE-6L6-GT reissue is a wonderful tube. Lots of detail and clarity. BIAS to 38-45ma and use your ear.

I may also sell the Pro, or would swap for a blonde Bassman.
 
http://www.ehx.com/products/6v6gt (http://www.ehx.com/products/6v6gt)
 
http://wpc.077d.edgecastcdn.net/00077D/groovetubes/pdf/Fender_Groove_Tubes_Price_List_Final.pdf (http://wpc.077d.edgecastcdn.net/00077D/groovetubes/pdf/Fender_Groove_Tubes_Price_List_Final.pdf)
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on August 28, 2014, 11:27:52 PM
Here's an FYI for all of my fans. I have finished restoring pair of Princeton Reverbs, a Pro Reverb I may keep, a Deluxe Reverb, and a Twin Reverb. Two (2) of these amps exhibited motor boating, one a load crackling sound, and another just blew fuses. Every one of these initial problems was traced to a defective JJ tube. The motor boating was traced to a defective 12AX7, the fuse blowing traced to a defective rectifier (which was new), the crackling traced to crap in an output tube (6V6), all JJ. This is the reason I don't use JJ tubes, and won't use JJ tubes. I have been using EH for their 6V6 which are very musical, lots of chime, very durable. BIAS to about 28ma and check for blocking. For 6L6 I prefer to use Sylvania or RCA (bucks), however, Groove tubes GE-6L6-GT reissue is a wonderful tube. Lots of detail and clarity. BIAS to 38-45ma and use your ear.

I may also sell the Pro, or would swap for a blonde Bassman.
 
http://www.ehx.com/products/6v6gt (http://www.ehx.com/products/6v6gt)
 
http://wpc.077d.edgecastcdn.net/00077D/groovetubes/pdf/Fender_Groove_Tubes_Price_List_Final.pdf (http://wpc.077d.edgecastcdn.net/00077D/groovetubes/pdf/Fender_Groove_Tubes_Price_List_Final.pdf)
i only use Electro Harmonix tubes.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Luke Geis on August 29, 2014, 01:57:10 AM
I have been having lots of luck with JJ tubes myself. I have 3 amps all loaded with JJ preamp tubes. The JJ's have shown to be well performing for me. This is of course in higher gain, modern amps so perhaps it is a factor?

Motorboating is usually caused by bad, or failing coupling caps and or PS caps. I would suspect given this thread is on vintage amps, that this could be a possibility? It may be that certain tubes are more sensitive to the condition? As for failed rectifier and power tube, perhaps luck of the draw?

There are really only two or three major manufacturers of tubes these days. Most available options are re-branded. EH, Ruby and Groove Tubes are the most popular of the re-brands. Shuguang, Svetlana, New Sensor and JJ are probably the more popular actual tube makers. Interestingly Svetlana tubes are two separate companies! The original one you know of is now owned and made by New Sensor, while the "real " Svetlana  ( aka SED Winged C ) tubes are marketed with the old "winged C " logo here in the states. Many of the others you know are simply " the Big Three " and other makers tubes with another name on it. New Sensor is probably the largest maker these days owning several brands you buy. EH, Tung-Sol, Sovtek, Svetlana, Mullard and Genalex are just a few that New Sensor owns! It seems that each brand of tube is made in a different country or part of it, which is what probably lends to each flavor that they exhibit. JJ tubes are made in Russia with old equipment from the popular Tesla brand that went under. Interestingly New Sensor says that it owns Tesla/JJ tubes, while JJ states that they are the maker of their own tubes. There is a myth surrounding the Tesla and JJ tubes. I believe that JJ is a sole entity and that New Sensor owns the Tesla brand name. They blend the two into one since tools once used by Tesla are probably still in use to make the modern Tesla branded tubes?

 These days most companies are ramping up quality in tube production in order to tap into the " market " of the tube that one must have. Simply put, those cheap China made no name tubes may actually be pretty good if purchased and re=branded by a company that puts the heat on for good tubes. The Tube Store and TAD are such examples. They both have a signature series of tubes, all made in China that are of very good quality and performance.

I don't buy into the NOS and vintage tube market thing. Do they sound better? No, they sound different. They were made so many years ago and managed to last this long so it must have been a good tube to begin with. I own a few original RCA, Phillips and Sylvania tubes and I cannot say that they are better than any other tube I have owned. They work fine and sound fine. I have bought many a $12-$14 preamp tubes and they have all worked well. I have used other preamp tubes that are going for $25 or more that don't sound any better. I prefer to buy from an actual maker of tubes if I can, but paying a little more for one that has been performance rated isn't bad either. GT tubes has also served me well. I just don't like the stickers they put on the tubes. I like glowing glass, not billboards......
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 29, 2014, 09:35:45 PM
Luke,
I wish I could say detailing, repairing, and blue printing vintage Fender amplifiers is a hobby to me, but it isn't, it's something I've done since the 60's. My work is done on request, I don't advertise, and I am particular about the amplifiers I rebuild and who I rebuild them for.

My statement concerning JJ tubes is based on a large number of instances, not just those I mentioned above. I'm also very aware of commodity manufacturers and their practices, the differences between the Chinese and Russian tubes, etc.. You need to be aware though that many of the rebranded tubes being sold are STR types from specific manufacturers using specific material and specific manufacturing processes required to meet the customers demands.

For instance, the GT 6L6 GE was manufactured here in the USA by Groove tubes until recently using the original tooling and OEM materials still available and purchased from GE. In other words, it's an American tube. However, the process and tooling may have been moved over seas, I'm not sure. At any rate there are vast differences in tube types, even from the same manufacturer, depending on who they are making those tubes for. Re-labeling tubes is not new, and is a practice dating back to the late 30's.

I keep no fewer than 50-75 tubes of every commonly used type on the bench at all times. Those range from black plate RCA, Sylvania, GE and Mullard to Groove tube, EH, Svetlana, SED, or almost every Chinese and Russian type available. I do this because in my world it becomes critical that I have a reference back to some of the greatest and best performing tubes ever manufactured, up through the most commonly used tubes from todays manufacturers. Substituting tubes is part of the lengthy process I go through to voice each and every amplifier I rebuild.

To me this makes a difference, and in the end I hope the extra effort required to select just the right components for that specific rebuild makes a difference to those who have trusted me with their amplifiers.

So this was no fluke, and I run into bad JJ's all the time, more so than any other brand I've seen. The motor boating? Not a chance that it was a capacitor as the amp had just been rebuilt and it was into it's second hour of testing using the tubes the customer sent me before the failure occurred.  Take it for what it's worth, and if JJ's float your boat who am I to say they shouldn't. For my money, or for that person who expects the best, there are many other tube types I'll use first.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Luke Geis on August 30, 2014, 11:43:58 PM
A labor of love :)  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JJ's are the bee's knee's. I have had a couple go on me as well. I have also had premature failure in one form or another from just about every maker I have purchased from. I've had a Svetlana EL34 and several other preamp tubes from many makers that were microphonic upon delivery! No doubt a great tube is a great tube. But you don't know if it's good until you plug it in and use it. I suspect what makes the NOS tube market so strong is that the majority of those tubes that have lasted this long were made well enough to last that long. Stands to reason it should perform well?

Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on September 01, 2014, 06:27:45 PM
NOS tubes were made when the military, television and radio industries (among others) needed them in mass quantities. With mass production, you can eliminate issues in short runs and iron out quirks, etc. JAN (Joint Army Navy) NOS tubes underwent more rigorous testing and seem to last longer.

I'm a firm believer in the tonal difference between NOS and new tubes; I know that when I swapped a JAN Philips NOS preamp tube in my Bandmaster for the JJ in it, the tone improved.

For Fender amps, one that's worth trying in the phase inverter circuit is a Mullard CV4024 - sounds great. I was turned on to this by Mike Kropotkin of KCA NOS Tubes, which is where I buy all of my tubes. Mike is great to deal with and incredibly knowledgeable.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on September 01, 2014, 06:35:53 PM
Come on now, somebody buy this!

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/msg/4581166252.html (http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/msg/4581166252.html)

FENDER BASEMAN 1962 AMP W/BOTTOM 6G6-B According to the transformer # dating from Fender's website, This is a late 1961 transformer which means the amp was probably made in mid 1962.
 Tolex and Grills have been replaced. Amp serviced to specs(cap job etc...) with few hours play time. 2-16ohm (each) Celestion Alnico Blues put in new maybe 10 years ago(light use) wired for 8ohms (head is 4ohms) and ran 2-8ohm cabinets in the past. Open back added for sound but original back included with screws. $1350


That is insanely cheap for a 6G6-B Bassman. The Celestion Blues would be worth over $500 by themselves and should be taken out - they're not rated for enough wattage to handle the power from the amp. Better to replace with some Kendrick Black Frames or Warehouse G12C or G12C/S that won't be destroyed the first time the amp is taken above 3 or 4....


I'm good for now, but the Schumacher tranny codes in the photos do check out for type and dates for '62. Chassis stamp dates to 1962 as well. It's missing the tube chart, but that's the least reliable way to date a Fender amp anyway.


Could be a great amp for someone... I think the spelling mistake in the title could be the reason buyers could score a deal here.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Bob Leonard on September 01, 2014, 07:25:39 PM
Ned, you should buy it for me because I'm a nice guy.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on September 02, 2014, 01:31:56 AM
Best reason I know of.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Rob Spence on September 02, 2014, 10:04:14 PM
So, I have a '68 Bassman with the dual 12 cabinet. I bought them at different times.  The head hasn't visited Bob yet. I believe the speakers were replaced by the previous owner of the cabinet.

What speakers would be good to put in to do justice to head rebuild?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Ned Ward on September 02, 2014, 11:21:37 PM
Rob - I have replaced the 12's in my Bandmaster closed 2x12 with Warehouse Speakers G12C's and in my open 2x12 Bandmaster combo I went with the Warehouse Speakers G12C/S - I like the sound very much. Warehouse has several different models with different tonal options.

Kendrick Black Frames would be great, but are twice the cost; they are good, but not sure they're twice as good. I did just put a 10" Kendrick Black Frame in my Princeton Reverb and love the sound...
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jeff Bankston on November 09, 2014, 10:50:32 PM
A couple of days agoI bought this Fender Bullet for $29.00 used. OMG its loud and sounds awsome ! 15 watts , 8" speaker and 13"x13" in size. It has a normal channel and a gain channel. The gain channel has crunch and sustain. My strat and it are the bomb ! This might  be a great amp to record with. so much for just a little home practice amp. Man its awsome !
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Steve M Smith on November 10, 2014, 02:42:17 AM
My daughter has something similar to that as a practice amp.  I borrowed it a couple of weeks ago for a band practice and I was surprised at how good it was.


Steve.
Title: Re: The Fender amplifier wars - Everyone is welcome..
Post by: Jason Glass on November 10, 2014, 02:09:00 PM
A couple of days agoI bought this Fender Bullet for $29.00 used. OMG its loud and sounds awsome ! 15 watts , 8" speaker and 13"x13" in size. It has a normal channel and a gain channel. The gain channel has crunch and sustain. My strat and it are the bomb ! This might  be a great amp to record with. so much for just a little home practice amp. Man its awsome !

Joe Walsh has repeatedly said the there is no secret to his sound.  Just a Tele plugged directly into a 15W Fender with a single 8" speaker.  I have yet to hear a bad guitar sound on a Walsh album!