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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Craig Smith on November 28, 2012, 10:22:35 AM
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I need to buy some SDC mics for general area mics (choir, orchestra, small groups). I have a KSM-137 that I've been very happy with, but I need these to be under $150 each. I initially thought the AT Pro 37 would be an option, but I've heard it's a bit dark (frequency response drops off at the high end); then I heard the cheaper AT 2021 might be good, but then I saw other reviews that were negative. Other options I've found are the AKG Perception 170 and C1000 and Rode M3. At one point I had researched the C1000 and it didn't seem the best for these needs either, but everything is relative. I prefer to stay with major brands but price is an important issue.
To reiterate, over $150 is not an option and large diaphragms are not an option (these need to be unobtrusive). Thanks for your help!
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Craig,
You get what you pay for…
I prefer Crown CM700s for choir mics - I find them to have a very defined - and even - pickup pattern. But, you pay for that consistency.
If you usually have a very high GBF ratio, you are less constrained by your mics' patterns, but if you - like me - struggle with children's choirs and "singers" who don't project, you'll want precise pickup of sources and accurate nulls for feedback resistance.
How many people are we talking about?
What is the type of music they will be performing?
What typical venues do they perform in?
Backing tracks/A Cappella or Live Band, etc.?
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I need to buy some SDC mics for general area mics (choir, orchestra, small groups). I have a KSM-137 that I've been very happy with, but I need these to be under $150 each. I initially thought the AT Pro 37 would be an option, but I've heard it's a bit dark (frequency response drops off at the high end; then I heard the cheaper AT 2021 is might be good, but then I saw other reviews that were negative. Other options I've found are the AKG Perception 170 and C1000 and Rode M3. At one point I had researched the C1000 and it didn't seem the best for these needs either, but everything is relative. I prefer to stay with major brands but price is an important issue.
To reiterate, over $150 is not an option and large diaphragms are not an option (these need to be unobtrusive). Thanks for your help!
Craig.....
I have three AT 3031's
( http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/474528ca789f46f4/index.html )
that I've never used. They can be yours if you want them.
DR
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I need to buy some SDC mics for general area mics (choir, orchestra, small groups). I have a KSM-137 that I've been very happy with, but I need these to be under $150 each. I initially thought the AT Pro 37 would be an option, but I've heard it's a bit dark (frequency response drops off at the high end; then I heard the cheaper AT 2021 is might be good, but then I saw other reviews that were negative. Other options I've found are the AKG Perception 170 and C1000 and Rode M3. At one point I had researched the C1000 and it didn't seem the best for these needs either, but everything is relative. I prefer to stay with major brands but price is an important issue.
To reiterate, over $150 is not an option and large diaphragms are not an option (these need to be unobtrusive). Thanks for your help!
First, finding bad reviews of ANYTHING is common on the InterWebs - especially on the low end of the price scale. Have you found good reviews of these products, too? Second, with your budget the AT Pro 37 is a decent choice. They are a decent inexpensive SDC that I find myself using all the time on all sorts of sources - even though I've got a mic locker full of Neumanns and the like. Of course, if Dick is letting those 3031's go for $150 per, that's an even better choice.
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Craig,
I have had great success with the C1000 for both adult and children's choir in church settings. They are a bit big because of the battery compartment but the ability to change from cardioid to super-card as well as being able to alter the HF response has been useful. (You do this by changeing a plastic cap inside the mic head) Some people don't like the C1000 but I have found it very useful in this application, and it fits your budget.
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Thanks everyone. Unfortunately often I am dealing with inexperienced people and don't usually have good GBF. And it's usually in multi-purpose rooms with lousy acoustics. When it's full choir and orchestra neither of those are an issue but that's a rare occasion. Not much with live bands any more but sometimes piano or acoustic guitar. I want something pretty universal. I also have some AT 851 boundary mics that might work for some of this but I figured an SDC would be better. Yeah, there are always negative reviews of everything, and if there are a lot of reviews I usually average things out but so far I haven't found too many or enough consistency for these.
I've heard good things about the 3031; I'll PM you Mr. Rees. I'll look again at the others too.
Thanks!
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I need to buy some SDC mics for general area mics (choir, orchestra, small groups). I have a KSM-137 that I've been very happy with, but I need these to be under $150 each. I initially thought the AT Pro 37 would be an option, but I've heard it's a bit dark (frequency response drops off at the high end); then I heard the cheaper AT 2021 might be good, but then I saw other reviews that were negative. Other options I've found are the AKG Perception 170 and C1000 and Rode M3. At one point I had researched the C1000 and it didn't seem the best for these needs either, but everything is relative. I prefer to stay with major brands but price is an important issue.
To reiterate, over $150 is not an option and large diaphragms are not an option (these need to be unobtrusive). Thanks for your help!
I'm one of the C1000 "haters" out there, but I think you should borrow or rent a couple and try them out. My favorite SDC for choir and orchestra section pickup is the AKG C535. More than your budget, but try out a couple (esp. if you can hear them with the C1000 - you'll understand why the 535s cost more).
We don't own any Pro37, but we've had performers bring their own on some acoustic and bluegrass festivals. I would use them in place of my more expensive mics if I had a significant concern about handling or weather. They did not sound "dark" to me as much as they lacked the open top end of the AT4041s I use for these events. They also have a very different sound, off-axis, than the 4041s... but at 1/3 the price I can live with those things if the situation calls for it.
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I'm one of the C1000 "haters" out there, but I think you should borrow or rent a couple and try them out.
If you can't find any C1000's to borrow, just throw up a few SM58's for reference. The C1000 sounds about 70% as good as the 58.............
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Thanks for the additional info. Good idea, I did rent a couple before I bought my others but forgot about that. Getting old.
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Craig, please give the Behringer C-2 a try. I have several and IMO they are a great multipurpose SDC that will fit well within your budget.
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If you can't find any C1000's to borrow, just throw up a few SM58's for reference. The C1000 sounds about 70% as good as the 58.............
Dick's opinion differs a bit from mine. To me, they sound about 70% as good as a 58 under a blanket.
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Oktava MC012. Miles above the C1000. Cardioid costs about $150. Best bang for the buck.
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Oktava MC012. Miles above the C1000. Cardioid costs about $150. Best bang for the buck.
Thanks, I'll take a look along with the others.
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I'm one of the C1000 "haters" out there,
Word...I'm another C1000 hater. Truly awful microphone.
I would jump on Dick's offer of three AT 3031s. I have a pair that I use for my personal recording set up. good solid mic. Too bad they don't make them anymore.
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Find some of the original CAD E100's. For me they have worked great on choirs as well as single mic bluegrass bands.
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Word...I'm another C1000 hater. Truly awful microphone.
I would jump on Dick's offer of three AT 3031s. I have a pair that I use for my personal recording set up. good solid mic. Too bad they don't make them anymore.
This is the 3031.
Some searches end up showing the 3030 which is much larger and side-address. I couldn't attach a photo to a PM, so here it is in reply to JB's post.
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Thanks, I'll take a look along with the others.
The AT4041 is also decent. You could get a used SM81 for about $175. The problem is that when it comes to acoustic recording, as some pointed out, you get what you pay for. I use Schoeps and DPA mostly, with an occasional sennhieser mkh8040 because I make my living recording classical and jazz music. Out of all the options mentioned, the Oktava will be the highest quality. Just beware of chinese fakes. Do a quick google search to know the difference. I also agree with others that the C1000 is probably the worse mic ever created, with TLM103 close following. An SM57 will sound better!
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In addition to my AKG 391's, I also keep a few MXL 603's on hand. They can be found around $50.00 used and work well for "Less-critical" applications.
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Oktava MC012.
Those of you who have real world experience with the Oktava, could you please give us some details about what you like about it? How does it compare with the standard go-to SDC such as Pro37, SM81, KMS184, etc.
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Thanks everyone. It looks like the Oktava is quite a bit more expensive. A friend had recommended the MXL. My dilemma is this is not for critical applications and most people won't know the difference, and price is an issue, so I should probably just go with something like that, but I'm too proud and like to stick with at least a certain level. I will likely take Dick up on his offer but am checking a couple more things.
The only concern I have with the 3031 is the polar plot doesn't look like it has as much rejection off-axis as some others, and feedback could be an issue for area micing. Anyone have any experience with them in this area?
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Thanks everyone. It looks like the Oktava is quite a bit more expensive. A friend had recommended the MXL. My dilemma is this is not for critical applications and most people won't know the difference, and price is an issue, so I should probably just go with something like that, but I'm too proud and like to stick with at least a certain level. I will likely take Dick up on his offer but am checking a couple more things.
I think you were in the right ballpark with the AT Pro37 mics. There are many better sounding mics but not near the same price range.
Jason
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Those of you who have real world experience with the Oktava, could you please give us some details about what you like about it? How does it compare with the standard go-to SDC such as Pro37, SM81, KMS184, etc.
I just used a pair on a children's choir outdoors for a Christmas tree lighting. There were about 20 kids in two rows with half on the ground and half on hay bales. The group was about 10 feet wide. The Oktavas were placed about 4 feet wide and about 1 foot above the first row of kids. The mains from the stage behind them were not used and instead two mackie srm450's were put on stands about 10 feet in front and 10 feet to the sides to try and reduce feedback issues. There were about 200 people in the audience in a 5-6 deep semi-circle butting right up to the srm450's.
Well those kids did not project all that well and it was difficult getting much volume in the mains without feedback. It seems like the mics picked up the crowd - who were fairly quiet and at least 15 feet away - as much as the kids.
I am wondering if the pick up pattern on the Oktavas might be too broad for this type of application? I do have some low cost Audix F15 mics and wonder if anyone can recommend those for this application?
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I am wondering if the pick up pattern on the Oktavas might be too broad for this type of application? I do have some low cost Audix F15 mics and wonder if anyone can recommend those for this application?
Is it possible you had the omni capsules on them at the time?
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Sounds like the stuff I deal with. I've been sticking with cardioid mics for more even pickup of groups (I assume), but I should probably be looking at supers or hypers more. Monitor placement is sometimes an issue though and I worry about the rear lobe.
I should mention that these are on my church's budget (although I may end up having to foot some of it). If it were just my money I'd definitely get something better.
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Is it possible you had the omni capsules on them at the time?
James - the Oktava's had the cardiod capsules and the -10dB pad inserts were left out. They did have 1/8 inch thick foam windscreens on them. No monitors, just mains.
The first feedback frequency seemed to be about 800Hz or so. There was no "ringing out" ahead of time as this was just one of a variety of performances. And the feedback started at such low reinforcement levels that I did not try to notch anything on the fly. I just rode the main fader to stay just under the feedback level. Not ideal or particularly expert, but all I could manage at the time on the Ipad.
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I just used a pair on a children's choir outdoors for a Christmas tree lighting. There were about 20 kids in two rows with half on the ground and half on hay bales. The group was about 10 feet wide. The Oktavas were placed about 4 feet wide and about 1 foot above the first row of kids. The mains from the stage behind them were not used and instead two mackie srm450's were put on stands about 10 feet in front and 10 feet to the sides to try and reduce feedback issues. There were about 200 people in the audience in a 5-6 deep semi-circle butting right up to the srm450's.
Well those kids did not project all that well and it was difficult getting much volume in the mains without feedback. It seems like the mics picked up the crowd - who were fairly quiet and at least 15 feet away - as much as the kids.
I am wondering if the pick up pattern on the Oktavas might be too broad for this type of application? I do have some low cost Audix F15 mics and wonder if anyone can recommend those for this application?
I've used Oktava MC-012... 5 or 6 across the front line of bluegrass festivals with wedge monitors and did so for several years. I did not have the experience you describe. I quit using them because after 5 year years of continuous use they began to show mechanical problems with the XLR male connectors and mic body that led to phantom power issues. With more attentive maintenance I might still be using them. As it is, I have 4 that are 100% reliable and 3 more that need some TLC when used, but sound fine.
The cardioid pattern IS rather broad and for a lot of things that's not really bad, you just need to be aware of it and plan accordingly.
Blaming mics because you didn't have time to optimize your EQ or delay, or because you were mixing from an iPad (yuck.. this novelty needs to be reserved for situations where you absolutely can't run a snake for a proper FOH position) is putting the guilt at the wrong end of the signal chain.
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... the worse mic ever created, with TLM103 close following.
Wow, I hadn't ever researched it but I didn't realize it wasn't very loved. When I bought a recording mic for my wife, I broke down and got a non-name brand non-American/European made ADK CE, but I was thinking I should have looked at the TLM103.
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Wow, I hadn't ever researched it but I didn't realize it wasn't very loved. When I bought a recording mic for my wife, I broke down and got a non-name brand non-American/European made ADK CE, but I was thinking I should have looked at the TLM103.
The ADK is a very decent mic. You did well.
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I do a lot of choir work. In the last month I have provided for at least six different choirs from approximately 7 year old to young adults and I have another choir next week that is made up of 2nd grade kids.
One of the concerts we did this month was the All-State High School Jazz Choir Concert here in Arizona. This included three different choirs for the concert. Two were jazz groups singing into individual mics. All the singers had SM58s. There were 20-23 kids in each choir. The third group was a "Show" choir with 40 kids that had choreographed dance while they were singing. We used 7 SM58s across the front. The mics were strategically placed so the stands could be used as markers for the dance routine. It worked absolutely perfectly. We chose not to use hanging condensers for this particular concert but have done so in the past for Show Choirs in addition to the 58s. They all had a live Jazz combo for the music and we used condensers for the Piano, guitar and drums, while we used good ol' SM57s on the brass and woodwind.
People really over think the choir stuff. If you aren't recording it then keep it really simple and use your 58s. You'll have a way easier time with monitors and it will still sound just fine.
BTW, I have four of the "Real" Oktava MC012 mics mentioned earlier and they are the mics that I would typically hang above a show choir. I love them, they work and sound great. Very hard to get the real ones now days though.
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This is the 3031.
Some searches end up showing the 3030 which is much larger and side-address. I couldn't attach a photo to a PM, so here it is in reply to JB's post.
??? Not sure why you were going to PM a pic of the 3031. I have two of them. I know what they look like. I also have an AT 3035 which is quite good as well, and is a side address LDC.
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??? Not sure why you were going to PM a pic of the 3031. I have two of them. I know what they look like.
I think that was intended for me.
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The ADK is a very decent mic. You did well.
Thanks, good. My wife wanted a Manley Gold Reference but that was not an option.
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I have had good experiences with Kel microphones as a reasonable i cost condenser.
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You can get SM94's on Amazon for 169.-
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Not familiar with the SM94 or Kel. Looks to me like Kel only makes large diaphragm though.
I think Dick's offer is the best value, but I'm actually looking at cheaper Chinese options now since I really need 4 and it adds up too fast. (Things like AT2021, AKG Perception 170, Samson C02, MXL 603, CAD GXL 1200, and Behringers.) Have to lower my expectations. Or maybe I get two decent and two cheap.
Thanks everyone.
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Not familiar with the SM94 or Kel. Looks to me like Kel only makes large diaphragm though.
I think Dick's offer is the best value, but I'm actually looking at cheaper Chinese options now since I really need 4 and it adds up too fast. (Things like AT2021, AKG Perception 170, Samson C02, MXL 603, CAD GXL 1200, and Behringers.) Have to lower my expectations. Or maybe I get two decent and two cheap.
Thanks everyone.
I also have a pair of immaculate SM94's in addition to the 3031's. They're about the same price. If you use your 137 and the three 3031's they should match up pretty well, though. But the inexpensive Audiopile option is still the most economical........
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Wow, I hadn't ever researched it but I didn't realize it wasn't very loved. 3.
You made a smart choice with the ADK. BTW - I trust the market over any one person's opinion. When there are 10-20 ebay auctions for the same mic at any given time, you know it's a not a wise investment. I always see people trying to get their money back on a neuman 103 or 184.
The MC012 also has the flexibility of multiple capsules. I have the 3 different patterns and change them constantly depending on situation. The build/quality could be better. I have had one die on me, but it was not expensive to replace. And one of my omni caps is on the brink, so I'll be ordering a new one soon.
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I always see people trying to get their money back on a neuman 103 or 184.
:o
184s are my not so secret weapons, they are absolutely beautiful sounding on acoustics, strings, cymbals, pianos...to my ears at least...
Others in my little P.A.C. have agreed enthusiastically-
I've never heard anyone disparage this mic before...is this a common perception of them?
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:o
184s are my not so secret weapons, they are absolutely beautiful sounding on acoustics, strings, cymbals, pianos...to my ears at least...
Others in my little P.A.C. have agreed enthusiastically-
I've never heard anyone disparage this mic before...is this a common perception of them?
They have a bit of a reputation for being a bit bright, especially when you start to get a tad off-axis. I have tried to like them, buying matched sets three different times over a period of about five years. I just keep returning them.
I characterize their "sound" rather harshly. To me they sound "brassy". The warmest I've heard have been the Oktava O12's, but with them I've had problems with floppy diaphragms and sold mine although I dearly loved the sound. They just had too much of a tendency to have audible noise from the diaphragms.
My SDC of choice at the moment is the Shure KSM 137. Acceptable sound, nice pattern and very rugged.
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I ended up going cheap and getting some Samson C02s. They work better (higher GBF) for theatrical stuff (which I do more than choir) because of their super-cardiod pattern. And I got a great price. I may get a pair of MXL 603s though as well and see how they compare to the KSM. Thanks again for all your help.
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I ended up going cheap and getting some Samson C02s. They work better (higher GBF) for theatrical stuff (which I do more than choir) because of their super-cardiod pattern. And I got a great price. I may get a pair of MXL 603s though as well and see how they compare to the KSM. Thanks again for all your help.
I'll wade in with a slightly different perspective. For quality, cheap, Stick condensors, you would be very hard pushed to beat the Rode NT5, particularly at it's price. I know a highly respected classical recording engineer with a handful of Grammy's and other rewards to his name who absolutely love's them.
In regards to live sound, another engineer I know uses them for classical events all the time. One of his regular gigs is Placido Domingo. He told me that he simmed one against a Schoeps equivelent to check for polar response and said that it was remarkably similar.
In truth there are many microphones that will also do an ok job. I'm thinking about microphones from the likes of Shure ksm, various Audio Technica's, even the humble C1000, yes, I know there isn't a lot of love shown round here for them, however, I've had situations where I have had to use them as that was all that was left/available and I've managed to get reasonable sound out of them. Of course not my first choice and they are rather unsightly due to their ridiculous size, but a capable all rounder and you have to bear in mind their very low street price.
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I have heard good things about the NT5, especially for the price.